Covid-19 Vaccines and Christian Ethics

[Wade]

I'm glad you have not seen this in your area. You are fortunate. In our area, it was commonplace, not limited to plain Anabaptists of course.

I'm sorry you feel that I have no message to send the lost because I got a Covid vaccine. In your opinion, does anyone who goes to the doctor for an illness or preventive treatment also likewise lose their Christian testimony, because they do so in fear rather than having hope in Christ? If not, what makes the Covid vaccine unique in terms of making a Christian lose the ability to reach the lost for Christ?

You had COVID.... Your consent to an unethical vaccine when you had natural immunity is utterly confusing to say the least. The people I know getting the vaccine are unbelievers who are fearful. For a believer to get an unethical vaccine when they have natural immunity sends a message to these fearful unbelievers that we should follow the world and why would they think you have anything to offer to stop their fears if you aren't doing anything different than them?

I understand what you think about the vaccine, and I am not trying to dissuade you from that view even though I do not agree with it. But you did not answer my question.

I answered your second question as best as I could. And your first question is so far off topic, unrelated, and is so incredibly different I see no point in addressing such distractions.

[mike]

I answered your second question as best as I could. And your first question is so far off topic, unrelated, and is so incredibly different I see no point in addressing such distractions.

Fair enough. The issue that is at the root of your accusation that people like me have nothing to offer an unbeliever, then, has to do with your view of the vaccines being unethical. I think this is a valid question, but I do not share your certainty that the vaccines are unethical. I feel your accusation is unfair, but I understand why you reach that conclusion given your view of the vaccine. I have no interest in getting you to violate your conscience.

[Wade]

I answered your second question as best as I could. And your first question is so far off topic, unrelated, and is so incredibly different I see no point in addressing such distractions.

Fair enough. The issue that is at the root of your accusation that people like me have nothing to offer an unbeliever, then, has to do with your view of the vaccines being unethical. I think this is a valid question, but I do not share your certainty that the vaccines are unethical. I feel your accusation is unfair, but I understand why you reach that conclusion given your view of the vaccine. I have no interest in getting you to violate your conscience.

Nope. You still don't understand. It is isn't only about being ethical or not. It is about where you share people can find hope by your life. People are placing hope in the vaccine and man. You acted the same, even if you didn't act in fear the carnal man can't see that difference typically. It appeases his conscience that he didn't do it in fear as more people join in, so you aren't much different than him to the point of you not having much to share. I used to have special regard for your posts but as time has gone on I am not sure you will fully understand. Being raised without Christ I have a different understanding of how the world thinks and is motivated that is likely different than you.

[mike]

I answered your second question as best as I could. And your first question is so far off topic, unrelated, and is so incredibly different I see no point in addressing such distractions.

Fair enough. The issue that is at the root of your accusation that people like me have nothing to offer an unbeliever, then, has to do with your view of the vaccines being unethical. I think this is a valid question, but I do not share your certainty that the vaccines are unethical. I feel your accusation is unfair, but I understand why you reach that conclusion given your view of the vaccine. I have no interest in getting you to violate your conscience.

Nope. You still don't understand. It is isn't only about being ethical or not. It is about where you share people can find hope by your life. People are placing hope in the vaccine and man. You acted the same, even if you didn't act in fear the carnal man can't see that difference typically. It appeases his conscience that he didn't do it in fear as more people join in, so you aren't much different than him to the point of you not having much to share. I used to have special regard for your posts but as time has gone on I am not sure you will fully understand. Being raised without Christ I have a different understanding of how the world thinks and is motivated that is likely different than you.

I act the same as carnal man in many respects, and it has nothing to do with any unusual fear. I go to the doctor and the dentist regularly, and it only reflects a normal respect for what our bodies are and wanting to do what is in my power to stay healthy as long as I can. In my opinion, being vaccinated for disease falls into the category of normal medical treatment. I do not feel that seeking medical treatment for therapeutic or preventative care equates lack of trust in God.

Some disagree with that. There are Christians who do believe that seeking any medical treatment reflects lack of faith in God, and my first question was intended to discover whether you share that view. These people really will die rather than seek medical treatment. I know of a young girl locally who died of a treatable illness due to that level of faith in God, and whose father served jail time for failing to seek medical care for her. I can respect that position even though I don't agree with it, and I take from your response that you don't either.

I find it hard to believe that everyone raised without Christ assumes that Christians who take Covid vaccines demonstrate lack of trust in God any more so than by seeking any other kind of medical care.

[Wade]

Fair enough. The issue that is at the root of your accusation that people like me have nothing to offer an unbeliever, then, has to do with your view of the vaccines being unethical. I think this is a valid question, but I do not share your certainty that the vaccines are unethical. I feel your accusation is unfair, but I understand why you reach that conclusion given your view of the vaccine. I have no interest in getting you to violate your conscience.

Nope. You still don't understand. It is isn't only about being ethical or not. It is about where you share people can find hope by your life. People are placing hope in the vaccine and man. You acted the same, even if you didn't act in fear the carnal man can't see that difference typically. It appeases his conscience that he didn't do it in fear as more people join in, so you aren't much different than him to the point of you not having much to share. I used to have special regard for your posts but as time has gone on I am not sure you will fully understand. Being raised without Christ I have a different understanding of how the world thinks and is motivated that is likely different than you.

I act the same as carnal man in many respects, and it has nothing to do with any unusual fear. I go to the doctor and the dentist regularly, and it only reflects a normal respect for what our bodies are and wanting to do what is in my power to stay healthy as long as I can. In my opinion, being vaccinated for disease falls into the category of normal medical treatment. I do not feel that seeking medical treatment for therapeutic or preventative care equates lack of trust in God.

Some disagree with that. There are Christians who do believe that seeking any medical treatment reflects lack of faith in God, and my first question was intended to discover whether you share that view. These people really will die rather than seek medical treatment. I know of a young girl locally who died of a treatable illness due to that level of faith in God, and whose father served jail time for failing to seek medical care for her. I can respect that position even though I don't agree with it, and I take from your response that you don't either.

I find it hard to believe that everyone raised without Christ assumes that Christians who take Covid vaccines demonstrate lack of trust in God any more so than by seeking any other kind of medical care.

As my wife just had her fourth c-section and the drugs of fentanyl, opiates drugs and etc. we're used, I, yes, use conventional medicine with me and my family.

What you are missing is; Would you go to the dentist and pull a tooth because it might get a cavity one day while it is all healthy otherwise? Would you take a prescription of oxycodone because next week you might hurt your back but it is still otherwise healthy now?

If yes, then I might be able to understand why you'd take a vaccine for something you have recently gained natural immunity to. But if you wouldn't then I don't understand.

[mike]

As my wife just had her fourth c-section and the drugs of fentanyl, opiates drugs and etc. we're used, I, yes, use conventional medicine with me and my family.

What you are missing is; Would you go to the dentist and pull a tooth because it might get a cavity one day while it is all healthy otherwise? Would you take a prescription of oxycodone because next week you might hurt your back but it is still otherwise healthy now?

If yes, then I might be able to understand why you'd take a vaccine for something you have recently gained natural immunity to. But if you wouldn't then I don't understand.

No, of course I would not do those things, because there is no reason to treat those problems prior to the actual illness occurring. Vaccinations are in a different category from therapeutic treatments. While taking oxycodone prior to hurting your back does absolutely nothing to prevent back injury, vaccination actually helps to prevent the disease from taking hold in your body.

Where we disagree here, then, is whether vaccines provide any additional immunity in addition to already existing natural immunity, and I would think that is possible. If you feel that is not the case, fair enough. I don't know if there is evidence either way. There appears to be a minute possibility of any harm coming from the vaccines, which is to be expected. However, as best as I can read the data, the possibility of harm coming from the virus itself is much greater. So my decision is based on that clear difference. I however am not God, and neither do I worship the data, people make mistakes, and everybody is different. So I do not have some great expectation that vaccination is a magic cure all. It is however I think the best path forward to managing the virus. That is not considering the ethical questions, which are a valid discussion. I can respect different views on that subject.

[Josh]

Some of us have a view that (a) the mRNA vaccine is immoral/unethical, although I try to do my best to live in peace with other people who do not share that view. (Unfortunately, most of such people don't want to live in peace with people like me.)

And (b), I hold a view that the mRNA vaccine is harmful and actually makes COVID worse. This is a difference of philosophical or technical opinion.

But, spiritually speaking, I have seen many people seeking these vaccines almost as a second kind of salvation. When someone doesn't attend church for a year, gets vaccinated, and then starts showing up to church again, it does seem that someone places a great deal of trust in the vaccine. It is misplaced: our trust should be in our Lord, not in experimental vaccines.

The mindset of being deathly afraid of a disease that is no different than a bad cold or the flu betrays a mindset that is overly influenced by worldly philosophies, fear-mongering, and one that has become detached from our real hope of life - hope in Jesus and the church. Those who are seeking long life and health in vaccines and in conventional medicine will be disappointed. I use conventional medicine too, but I prefer to only use what is long-lasting and established.

Recently Pfizer had to recall all of their Chantix medication because it causes cancer. I am quite wary of new medicines and new therapies, although I have tried and used some. Overall, most recent medical "innovations" have not actually led to improved health and life.

Incidentally, I have exactly the same things to say about people who put great faith and trust in "alternative" medicines and therapies, and are always seeking the latest Amish salve, or special supplement, or extra-healthy organic type of food. Those things are not the source of health and life, and I am especially concerned when so much faith is put in something brand new and unproven.

[Bootstrap]

think it is ethical to play it safe and trust in God at the same time. I pay attention when I drive a car, I wear a seat belt, I choose not to smoke, I get the vaccines that are recommended for the countries I travel to for work. Covid-19 has killed 1 out of every 500 Americans. More than 2,000 are dying every day. That makes it a real risk, and reasonable people may want to take precautions.

I see no ethical difference between taking the Covid-19 vaccine and taking other vaccines. I believe I have been vaccinated for all of the following. For some reason, many people are treating the Covid-19 vaccine as something ethically quite different from other vaccines.

• Chickenpox (Varicella)
• Covid-19
• Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis
• Flu (influenza)
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR)
• Polio
• Shingles
• Yellow Fever

[nett]

think it is ethical to play it safe and trust in God at the same time. I pay attention when I drive a car, I wear a seat belt, I choose not to smoke, I get the vaccines that are recommended for the countries I travel to for work.

I see no ethical difference between taking the Covid-19 vaccine and taking other vaccines. I believe I have been vaccinated for all of the following. For some reason, many people are treating the Covid-19 vaccine as something ethically quite different from other vaccines.

• Chickenpox (Varicella)
• Covid-19
• Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis
• Flu (influenza)
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR)
• Polio
• Shingles
• Yellow Fever

The COVID vaccine is significantly less effective (over time), and significantly more dangerous than the rest of those vaccines (with the exception of certain polio vaccines.

Scientific consensus in this nation is currently broken as to how to proceed with boosters, since the vaccine efficacy appears to wane, but there is no evidence that boosters are actually effective either.

There is also the issue of the dependence on fetal tissue for the COVID vaccine, and a general credibility crisis due to modern medicine diverging from most Christian values.

[Bootstrap]

Here's an interesting twist. According to at least one source, there's some question whether HEK-293 is derived from an aborted baby or a miscarriage.

Though HEK293 is commonly believed to have been obtained from an aborted human fetus, I received an e-mail a few months ago from Professor Frank Graham, who established this cell line. He tells me that to the best of his knowledge, the exact origin of the HEK293 fetal cells is unclear. They could have come from either a spontaneous miscarriage or an elective abortion. Regardless, the abortions that gave rise to the three cell lines—or in the possible case of HEK293, the miscarriage—happened decades ago. The aborted fetuses are long gone, as are the original fetal cells. There are no fetal body parts or fetal tissue left. Only distinct, new cells derived from the original fetal cells remain.

Suppose we knew for certain that HEK-293 came from a miscarriage rather than an abortion. How much would that change the ethics for those who refuse these vaccines?

I assume that uncertainty does not change the ethics significantly. Does anyone want to suggest that it should?