Baptism in the Catholic Church

[Josh]

So, how do I formally renounce a catholic baptism done without my consent? I wish to have record of it removed from the records of a origination that holds such records against my will and without my consent.

At least they did it whilst you’re still alive. The Mormons. A baptise on behalf of you after you’re dead!

[Ken]

So, how do I formally renounce a catholic baptism done without my consent? I wish to have record of it removed from the records of a origination that holds such records against my will and without my consent.

I doubt that is possible. It would be written in ink in the parish baptismal register on the page corresponding to the day, month, and year that the baptism occurred. They aren't going to go in and erase it for you. If it was long ago it would be in the parish archives someplace.

They aren't holding anything against your will or consent. It was a sacramental act that actually did occur in that parish on a specific time and date and they are within their rights to keep records of such events.

[temporal1]

So, how do I formally renounce a catholic baptism done without my consent? I wish to have record of it removed from the records of a origination that holds such records against my will and without my consent.

What did Menno Simons and all others over time do?

I’m sure they decided getting a bath as a baby was irrelevant and got baptized as a believer. ..

From what i’ve read, i believe this to be accurate, adding, they then took the next scandalous+fateful step by choosing not to baptize their newborns. This made them enemies of the state. (correct?) Terrifying. It was intended to terrify them and any who might want to read or learn.

i haven’t found any sign they sought defiant/formal legal means against their church or state.
Litigation is a proud hallmark of the contemporary world.

People believed their words meant a lot, a handshake, etc., without resorting to written contracts.

These men put their lives into “the hands of God” .. against their very own Church+state. They knew the gravity on all levels.

Martha Boyd shared some words that (i believe) aptly describe the mindset of the early believers who, not in defiance, but in radical faith and trust, risked all earthly life for eternal salvation.

The state saw them as an existential threat that could not be tolerated: Litigation+warfare.

In our times, we see EO state churches in Russia and Ukraine. Painful to witness.

JANUARY 1 2024 THE BOYDS EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Martha Boyd wrote:
.. Our family has been reading through a book called A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23 by Phillip Keller.
Adam and I read it together during our year in Ecuador in 1999-2000. It left a great impact on me back then, and I am enjoying reading it with my family now.

Early on in the book, I came across a line that greatly convicted me:

“Contentment should be the hallmark of the man or woman who has put his or her affairs in the hands of God.”
Contentment, also known as peace.

The Christian should be at peace because they have given their lives over to God and they trust that He is good.

Though we are in the midst of great change in our family, the Lord has given me a unique sense of peace.

On this forum, it’s often discussed how upsetting and painful it is when your chosen church, or born into church, “leaves you.”
No one expects to be drowned or burned at the stake.

That whole concept of one all-powerful church+state is something beyond what most can imagine, including contemporary Catholics, esp in the U.S. and west.

On MD, it was an active topic, churches, including Anabaptist fellowships, splitting up (often over homosexuals, and women in ministry). It’s continuing. The Methodist church did major splitting in 2023. In 2023 Pope Francis adds his bit (see OP).

i venture to guess, as a result, lots of folks believe their churches left them.

It’s not a bad thing for folks to be challenged to dig into their beliefs. Pray for the Holy Spirit.

Men stumble. God does not fail.

correct where mistaken.

[Judas Maccabeus]

So, how do I formally renounce a catholic baptism done without my consent? I wish to have record of it removed from the records of a origination that holds such records against my will and without my consent.

Was the Baptism done by your parents’ request? If so it is done and recorded. Those sacraments that are prayed by a priest or deacon at the request of individuals (such as your parents) are recorded and kept and are permanently valid as it impacts the soul. The RCC solemnly teaches that all 7 Sacraments have an indelible effect on the soul. That effect is permanent. It cannot be removed except by God.

That being said, does one being baptized in the RCC imply or confer membership in the RCC?

[Josh]

That being said, does one being baptized in the RCC imply or confer membership in the RCC?

Oddly enough, yes. Baptised members are distinct from confirmed members which are distinct from regular attenders.

The Episcopalians keep really good records on this, so you can see the distinction between them (their distinctions are basically the same as RCC's due to their shared heritage). The number of baptised members is much, much larger than the number of actual attenders. Baptised membership also is essentially meaningless (from a Mennonite perspective): it just means you can go get confirmed if you want to. And in RCC theology, if you have had a valid trinitarian baptism elsewhere, you don't need to be re-baptised into the RCC, and then you could still get confirmed if you want to.

[temporal1]

That being said, does one being baptized in the RCC imply or confer membership in the RCC?

Oddly enough, yes. Baptised members are distinct from confirmed members which are distinct from regular attenders.

The Episcopalians keep really good records on this, so you can see the distinction between them (their distinctions are basically the same as RCC's due to their shared heritage). The number of baptised members is much, much larger than the number of actual attenders. Baptised membership also is essentially meaningless (from a Mennonite perspective): it just means you can go get confirmed if you want to. And in RCC theology, if you have had a valid trinitarian baptism elsewhere, you don't need to be re-baptised into the RCC, and then you could still get confirmed if you want to.

now i wonder if there are baptism records of Luther, Simons, others? i suppose there must be, barring fires/floods, etc.
i don’t believe i’ve seen this question come up.

the early men didn’t want to leave their Church. they renounced their baptisms (not Luther) but their purpose was for their Church to return to scriptures (which seems so ordinary now) but was perceived by the state-church to be a magnificent existential threat then.

if you renounce your baptism, what difference does a recorded mark make, in the eyes of God?

it would be interesting to see recorded baptisms. and/or to know what became of them.

i believe at least part of the passion to baptize newborns was, infant mortality was high.
i was NOT raised in an infant baptizing family. we did not baptize our infants.

i empathize with parents who had to experience fragility of infants.
conversely, today, the healthy unborn are often exterminated for convenience. because it’s feared they will live.

[temporal1]

OP, P.1:

So the Vatican came out saying transgenders could now be baptized, from a theological view,
does this mean that the Catholic Church doesn’t care if repentance is done?

It certainly seems like there is some careful language in the official statement which implies if they are not repentant,
then it’s not a real baptism.
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/cong ... -negri.pdf

i recently listened to a recorded homily on this topic, the priest was attempting to explain this topic to his parishioners.
i found this brave, and i believe he did a good job.

the priest ended with imploring his parishioners to READ THE DOCUMENT FOR THEMSELVES.

this kind of took my breath away, surely an example of “a 180” from 1500’s Catholicism.
(i believe) this is a concrete example of the legacy of Anabaptists and Reformers, how can it be otherwise??
yet, no one bats an eye.

we humans have short, imperfect memories. God knows all in perfect fullness.

2021 / Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to a dubium regarding the blessing of the unions of persons of the same sex, 15.03.2021
https://press.vatican.va/content/salast ... 0315b.html

2023 / Declaration Fiducia Supplicans
On the Pastoral Meaning of Blessings
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/cong ... ns_en.html

[temporal1]

J.M., history might record you something like this:

Menno Simons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menno_Simons

"Menno Simons from Friesland"
1608 engraving by Christoffel van Sichem

Born 1496
Witmarsum, Friesland, Holy Roman Empire
Died 31 January 1561 (aged 64 or 65)
Wüstenfelde, Duchy of Holstein, Holy Roman Empire
Buried Bad Oldesloe
Denomination Roman Catholic (until 1536), Anabaptist (from 1536)
Spouse Geertruydt Jansdochter
Children Two daughters, one son
Profession Catholic priest (until 1536), Anabaptist minister and author (from 1536)

- - - - - - -

2020 / Opinion / How do you become, formally, not-a-Catholic? You take the law into your own hands
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -own-hands

.. Over time and with much tumult the church has been made to accept that a marriage might end in divorce.
But not a baptism.
There can be no divorcing the church.
And it battles the modern world to maintain the purity of this doctrine. ..

^^i don’t believe Sebastian Tesoriero is Anabaptist.

[MaxPC]

So, how do I formally renounce a catholic baptism done without my consent? I wish to have record of it removed from the records of a origination that holds such records against my will and without my consent.

Was the Baptism done by your parents’ request? If so it is done and recorded. Those sacraments that are prayed by a priest or deacon at the request of individuals (such as your parents) are recorded and kept and are permanently valid as it impacts the soul. The RCC solemnly teaches that all 7 Sacraments have an indelible effect on the soul. That effect is permanent. It cannot be removed except by God.

That being said, does one being baptized in the RCC imply or confer membership in the RCC?

Not necessarily. It simply means you have received the grace imparted by the sacrament of Baptism. Holy Communion and Confirmation are the Sacraments that formalise membership in the Catholic Church. The Rite of Christian Initiation is Tripartite: Baptism, then Holy Communion, then Confirmation.

[temporal1]

2023 / Vatican Doctrine Office: Transgender-Identifying People Can Be Baptized, Witness Marriages
The dicastery’s response is dated Oct. 31 and signed by DDF Prefect Cardinal Victor Fernández and Pope Francis.
https://www.ncregister.com/cna/vatican- ... -marriages

The Vatican’s doctrine office has said an adult who identifies as transgender can receive the sacrament of baptism under the same conditions as any adult, as long as there is no risk of causing scandal or confusion to other Catholics.

The Vatican also said that children or adolescents experiencing transgender identity issues may also receive baptism
“if well prepared and willing.”

The document answering these and other sacrament-based questions for those who identify as transgender and people in same-sex relationships was generated in response to questions posed to the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) in July by Bishop Giuseppe (José) Negri of Santo Amaro in Brazil. The guidance comes amid ongoing discussions within the Catholic Church about pastoral care for the LGBTQ community in light of Francis’ focus on accompaniment and synodality.

The dicastery’s response is dated Oct. 31 and signed by DDF Prefect Cardinal Victor Fernández and Pope Francis.
It is available on the Vatican website in Italian. ..