ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:42 pm
I think in order for something to be called "religious persecution" the driving factor has to be the religious beliefs or practices of the person being persecuted. The question as presented doesn't provide the motive for the withholding of full fellowship.
That being said, I don't think that withholding of fellowship as you describe it here rises to the level of persecution.
Now, I'm not exactly sure what you're driving at with this question, but I would say that in my experience I have seen very few if any situations that your description here would accurately describe.
Scenario 1
I grew up in a community that had a large population of OO/Ultra-conservative Mennonites and a large group of OO/Ultra-conservative Brethren. These groups did not share pulpits, did not practice the Holy Kiss with each other, and did not commune together, even though both groups had basically the same doctrine and the same practice. There was little desire in either group to practice these things together. (That in itself I would call sectarianism.) Now if someone from either group would have wanted to do these things with the other group, they would not have been allowed to do so. In my mind this is religious persecution.
Scenario 2
A person who did not grow up in an Anabaptist or similar church, wants to share pulpits with, wants to practice the holy kiss, the right hand of fellowship, and communion with likeminded believers. But because he is not part of their denomination or fellowship, he is not permitted to do so.
Scenario 3
A person believes that the New Testament teaches that materialism is wrong. He promises the Lord that he will not join a church that permits materialism. (Anabaptists teach against a lot of things but most do not teach against materialism.) Since it is rare to find an Anabaptist or similar church that teaches against materialism, this brother can't join a church, which also means he can't participate in communion with likeminded believers in those churches.
Scenario 1 - Having heard of various situations involving individuals leaving the Mennonites and joining the Brethren, or vice versa, I wouldn't say that a person "wouldn't be allowed" to share in fellowship and communion. I would rather say that either group would welcome those to join in fellowship and communion who are willing to be a part of and accountable to the group where they are wishing to fellowship. I would have to disagree with your take on this as religious persecution.
Scenario 2 - What keeps this person from being willing to join this group that he wants to fellowship with. Is he wanting the blessings of fellowship without the difficulties and challenges of commitment and accountability?
Schenario 3 - Again, if these churches are so wicked that this man can't become a member, why does he want to take communion with them. This isn't religious persecution, this is individualism.
justme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:43 pmbut how likeminded are they?
if they don't share the same values/beliefs, just how likeminded are they?
Very likeminded, but they just don't dot the i's and cross the t's the same way. Or you could say that the one prints letters and the other writes in cursive, but both write in English.
There are fundamental differences between the Mennonite vs. the Brethren understandings of various doctrines including of baptism, communion, and church discipline.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:42 pm
I think in order for something to be called "religious persecution" the driving factor has to be the religious beliefs or practices of the person being persecuted. The question as presented doesn't provide the motive for the withholding of full fellowship.
That being said, I don't think that withholding of fellowship as you describe it here rises to the level of persecution.
Now, I'm not exactly sure what you're driving at with this question, but I would say that in my experience I have seen very few if any situations that your description here would accurately describe.
My views fwiw -
Scenario 1
I grew up in a community that had a large population of OO/Ultra-conservative Mennonites and a large group of OO/Ultra-conservative Brethren. These groups did not share pulpits, did not practice the Holy Kiss with each other, and did not commune together, even though both groups had basically the same doctrine and the same practice. There was little desire in either group to practice these things together. (That in itself I would call sectarianism.) Now if someone from either group would have wanted to do these things with the other group, they would not have been allowed to do so. In my mind this is religious persecution.
In my mind, this is sad. I would never be a member of any church that had this kind of attitude toward others in God's family. God accepts them but I guess they have bigger criteria to be met before they will fellowship with them. That is not true religion. True religion is neither rules-based nor ritual-based. True religion is a relationship with God.
Scenario 2
A person who did not grow up in an Anabaptist or similar church, wants to share pulpits with, wants to practice the holy kiss, the right hand of fellowship, and communion with likeminded believers. But because he is not part of their denomination or fellowship, he is not permitted to do so.
Show me any scripture that supports that. Denominationalism is sourced in man not God.
Scenario 3
A person believes that the New Testament teaches that materialism is wrong. He promises the Lord that he will not join a church that permits materialism. (Anabaptists teach against a lot of things but most do not teach against materialism.) Since it is rare to find an Anabaptist or similar church that teaches against materialism, this brother can't join a church, which also means he can't participate in communion with likeminded believers in those churches.
Then he is going to have to live with the consequences of his conviction. However, he can participate with other believers in communion who will participate with him in a home study group or wherever two or three meet in Jesus name. Even if this means doing this remembrance with just his wife. I believe communion is first and foremost a remembrance practise of what Jesus did to save us from our sins. Jesus didn't tell His disciples at the first communion to first go and formally join a local church so you can participate. And according to some scriptures on the first communion, Jesus did not prevent Judas from participating. Judas may have but wasn't told he couldn't.
justme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:43 pmbut how likeminded are they?
if they don't share the same values/beliefs, just how likeminded are they?
Very likeminded, but they just don't dot the i's and cross the t's the same way. Or you could say that the one prints letters and the other writes in cursive, but both write in English.
but they really aren't likeminded in my opinion. because he truly believes that materialism is wrong, and the church he would like to join, does not believe it is wrong. so much so that he will not join that church
that is a core belief that they are not in agreement with.
printed vs cursive, i's and t's, is covering strings vs no covering strings vs color of covering strings.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:21 pm
Schenario 3 - Again, if these churches are so wicked that this man can't become a member, why does he want to take communion with them. This isn't religious persecution, this is individualism.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:42 pm
I think in order for something to be called "religious persecution" the driving factor has to be the religious beliefs or practices of the person being persecuted. The question as presented doesn't provide the motive for the withholding of full fellowship.
That being said, I don't think that withholding of fellowship as you describe it here rises to the level of persecution.
Now, I'm not exactly sure what you're driving at with this question, but I would say that in my experience I have seen very few if any situations that your description here would accurately describe.
My views fwiw -
Scenario 1
I grew up in a community that had a large population of OO/Ultra-conservative Mennonites and a large group of OO/Ultra-conservative Brethren. These groups did not share pulpits, did not practice the Holy Kiss with each other, and did not commune together, even though both groups had basically the same doctrine and the same practice. There was little desire in either group to practice these things together. (That in itself I would call sectarianism.) Now if someone from either group would have wanted to do these things with the other group, they would not have been allowed to do so. In my mind this is religious persecution.
In my mind, this is sad. I would never be a member of any church that had this kind of attitude toward others in God's family. God accepts them but I guess they have bigger criteria to be met before they will fellowship with them. That is not true religion. True religion is neither rules-based nor ritual-based. True religion is a relationship with God.
Scenario 2
A person who did not grow up in an Anabaptist or similar church, wants to share pulpits with, wants to practice the holy kiss, the right hand of fellowship, and communion with likeminded believers. But because he is not part of their denomination or fellowship, he is not permitted to do so.
Show me any scripture that supports that. Denominationalism is sourced in man not God.
Scenario 3
A person believes that the New Testament teaches that materialism is wrong. He promises the Lord that he will not join a church that permits materialism. (Anabaptists teach against a lot of things but most do not teach against materialism.) Since it is rare to find an Anabaptist or similar church that teaches against materialism, this brother can't join a church, which also means he can't participate in communion with likeminded believers in those churches.
Then he is going to have to live with the consequences of his conviction. However, he can participate with other believers in communion who will participate with him in a home study group or wherever two or three meet in Jesus name. Even if this means doing this remembrance with just his wife. I believe communion is first and foremost a remembrance practise of what Jesus did to save us from our sins. Jesus didn't tell His disciples at the first communion to first go and formally join a local church so you can participate. And according to some scriptures on the first communion, Jesus did not prevent Judas from participating. Judas may have but wasn't told he couldn't.
To me it sounds like you're saying that you will separate yourself from these people because they are separating themselves from other Christians, which is wrong.
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:02 am
Is it religious persecution if a group of faithful Christians withholds the right hand of fellowship, the holy kiss, and communion from people who believe and live the following...
...adhere to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles
...recognize the scriptures as inspired and agree with the Apostles Creed
...walk with God and their neighbors in holiness and love
...eschew violence and political entanglements
...help the widows and fatherless and keep themselves unspotted from the world
...submit to a body of believers (as it relates to matters addressed in the New Testament in contrast to cultural expressions)
???
I'm asking this question in a general way... realizing there may be legitimate exceptions such as not knowing a person well, controversy surrounding an individual, etc.
I've gotten stiff armed before. The Holy Kiss gets weaponized. Why? Come to find out my pants were not dark enough. I felt more pity and wanted to show more love. So sad. What a beautiful thing the Holy Kiss...
Chris wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:35 pm
I've gotten stiff armed before. The Holy Kiss gets weaponized. Why? Come to find out my pants were not dark enough. I felt more pity and wanted to show more love. So sad. What a beautiful thing the Holy Kiss...
I’ve stiff armed before… sometimes it’s not intentional.
Chris wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:35 pm
I've gotten stiff armed before. The Holy Kiss gets weaponized. Why? Come to find out my pants were not dark enough. I felt more pity and wanted to show more love. So sad. What a beautiful thing the Holy Kiss...
I’ve stiff armed before… sometimes it’s not intentional.
I will greet anyone who is a sincere follower of Jesus.
The last time I saw Wayne in Maine was at Cleveland airport, dropping him off for an early AM flight. We shook hands to say farewell and without thinking I greeted him, which I don’t normally do in airports or in public.
Since it is the last time I would ever see him on this side of the River Styx, I’m glad I did so.
#2 can simply join a church. Close communion and church membership linked to baptism are an integral part of Anabaptism and have been since 1525.
If he thinks church membership and close communion are invalid concepts, he can go to communion, share pulpits etc with other people who feel likewise.
#3 can also choose to join a church. I happen to be a #3 person except I am willing to join a church that doesn’t quite teach materialism the same way I believe, mostly as I have yet to find a congregation willing to really do this at all, and church membership is more important to me than a niche doctrine.
