Covid-19 Vaccines and Christian Ethics

[Bootstrap]

I believe abortion is wrong.

I do not believe that using parts from aborted children motivates or increases abortions.

That's a crucial question for me. I'm inclined to agree with you, but I know some disagree. What evidence do we have in either direction?

[nett]

I believe abortion is wrong.

I do not believe that using parts from aborted children motivates or increases abortions. As I would be happy to have my body parts being used for good, however I might die, I do not think it dishonors the dead to use their remains for the good of others.

Therefore I have no moral qualms about using medical solutions that used cell lines that originated from abortions.

You are essentially describing child sacrifices for your own health, I really it's real ingrained way of thinking, but extrapolate out what you're saying with some equivalent scenarios.

You live in a village that is planning to sacrifice a living baby to Moloch to gain a favorable harvest. All you have to do to gain that blessing, is appear at the ritual.

The child will be sacrificed whether you show up or not. The village leaders have assured everyone this is for the common good. The more people show up, the better the chances that Moloch will be pleased ("herd" crop blessing).

Will you go?

[Soloist]

I appreciate and respect what Soloist has written. Let me try to weigh this out as I understand it so far.

As long as HEK-293 is the only fetal line involved, we are talking about one baby aborted in 1972, and the abortion was not done for the purpose of harvesting stem cells.

I believe that Covid-19 can kill people, I would not feel comfortable visiting my mother in an assisted living facility if I had not been vaccinated, I would not feel comfortable worshiping inside with some people who are old or have serious chronic illnesses. We are up to 626,000 deaths by Covid-19.

I realize that some people may not believe these numbers or understand the science the way I do. But let me ask this as a hypothetical: if you believed that there was a real chance that someone else might be hospitalized or die as a result of your decision not to get vaccinated, how would you weigh that against the baby whose cells were used to test the vaccinations? I want to focus on the ethical arguments, given my understanding of the facts. If you don't think Covid is a real threat or you don't think vaccinations matter, it's a different ethical question. So if you believed in the same fact situation I do, how would you weigh 1 versus 2?

HEK-293 is the one being used for testing. There are many other cell lines being used for multiple medications/vaccines, pharmaceutical testing, product testing, incorporated in skin products...

Christians have historically rejected the logic "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few"

Boot, will you commit to not using new fetal cells generated after 1972 for testing, medication or for vaccines? or is this just all relative to you?

Let me ask it this way, if you have a rifle in a stationary position lined up on a suicide bomber where all you have to do is press a single key to kill him and you would save 100s would you do it? Why? why not?

Exactly the same ethical issue applies here other then you are one of the people cheering the shooter on. You don't pull the trigger, but you benefit and support it and this happened before, and has happened again and will happen again. I've posted multiple examples and links to factual data showing this is an ongoing process. Lets say you accept this now as the argument used before that it won't happen again... What will you do when it happens again?
This process very similar to now happened in the 40s, again in the 60s, 80s and then in the 2000s. Not only is all this factually happening, the major companies are actively looking for more cell lines. We are buying more cell lines... The research (while occasionally banned by federal funding) in grafting tissue and cells into mice for production of medication and development of treatments requires fresh abortion. While perhaps you specifically taking a vaccine is not promoting this, it is a package deal. All of these things are building on each other and it is very unlikely that the trend of aggressive fetal cell research is going to slack or stop if we as Christians are apathetic about using it. Even if we do take a stand, its very unlikely to change anything in the secular world, but we will not be participating in the gains from abortion.

[ohio jones]

New thread at OP's request: Denominational Anti-Vax Statements

[Bootstrap]

I believe abortion is wrong.

I do not believe that using parts from aborted children motivates or increases abortions. As I would be happy to have my body parts being used for good, however I might die, I do not think it dishonors the dead to use their remains for the good of others.

Therefore I have no moral qualms about using medical solutions that used cell lines that originated from abortions.

You are essentially describing child sacrifices for your own health, I really it's real ingrained way of thinking, but extrapolate out what you're saying with some equivalent scenarios.

You live in a village that is planning to sacrifice a living baby to Moloch to gain a favorable harvest. All you have to do to gain that blessing, is appear at the ritual.

The child will be sacrificed whether you show up or not. The village leaders have assured everyone this is for the common good. The more people show up, the better the chances that Moloch will be pleased ("herd" crop blessing).

Will you go?

That analogy doesn't seem entirely apt. In this case, the reason the child was killed has nothing at all to do with the vaccine or hope of a richer harvest, there's no religious ritual. For the Covid-19 vaccines, one child was killed in 1972, we don't know why the mother chose to have an abortion, but I doubt very much that she was thinking of vaccines. I don't want to make light of any abortion, but that's a very different situation than what you describe.

I also assume that the reason you do not get a vaccine has nothing to do with a desire to make people die of Covid-19. Probably best not to go overboard with this kind of inflammatory analogy. Let's stick with the basics: what is likely to increase abortion? what is likely to increase Covid-19 deaths? How do we navigate that?

Do you have reason to believe that the choices we make about vaccines will increase or decrease the rate of abortion in the United States?

[Soloist]

Do you have reason to believe that the choices we make about vaccines will increase or decrease the rate of abortion in the United States?

Irrelevant. This isn't about some line graph as to how many abortions and if we can decrease it. Its about our involvement with sin. We keep circling this question on multiple threads and its been answered several times to positions of several members on the forum. I doubt my position is unknown, your position is fairly well known. I presented some ethical analysis for you to consider in a previous post if you care to respond to answers to your question.

[Bootstrap]

HEK-293 is the one being used for testing. There are many other cell lines being used for multiple medications/vaccines, pharmaceutical testing, product testing, incorporated in skin products...

But for Moderna and Pfizer, it's HEK-293?

Christians have historically rejected the logic "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few"

Has anyone proposed sacrificing babies to make vaccines? I think that's different from using cells from someone who is already dead, for reasons that have nothing to do with vaccines.

Boot, will you commit to not using new fetal cells generated after 1972 for testing, medication or for vaccines? or is this just all relative to you?

This is not academic to me at all. I want to protect lives. I think you are saying that the only fetal cell lines came from HEK-293, a child killed in 1972?

I think it's easier to protect the lives of the living than to protect the lives of the already-dead. I took the time to research this before getting the Moderna vaccine, I think I do take this seriously. At the same time, I'm looking for information, I don't consider myself accountable to you nor you to me. I might make different choices than you and vice versa. I do want to hear how you understand this so I can decide whether I need to change the way I think about the issue.

Let me ask it this way, if you have a rifle in a stationary position lined up on a suicide bomber where all you have to do is press a single key to kill him and you would save 100s would you do it? Why? why not?

That's really easy - no, I wouldn't. But this analogy doesn't really work for me if it's someone who died in 1972 and I did nothing to cause that death, which was caused by a mother's decision that had nothing to do with the use of the stem cells today. She did not decide to kill her baby so that Bootstrap could get a vaccination.

So far, I don't really hear you talking about the other side of the equation - people who are now living, and who might be affected by your decision whether to get a Covid-19 vaccine or not. Of course, this is a statistical risk, but suppose you knew for a fact that someone might die because you chose not to get vaccinated, would you decide to kill them for the sake of a child who was killed in 1972, a child who cannot now be brought back to life?

Exactly the same ethical issue applies here other then you are one of the people cheering the shooter on. You don't pull the trigger, but you benefit and support it and this happened before, and has happened again and will happen again. I've posted multiple examples and links to factual data showing this is an ongoing process. Lets say you accept this now as the argument used before that it won't happen again... What will you do when it happens again?
This process very similar to now happened in the 40s, again in the 60s, 80s and then in the 2000s. Not only is all this factually happening, the major companies are actively looking for more cell lines. We are buying more cell lines... The research (while occasionally banned by federal funding) in grafting tissue and cells into mice for production of medication and development of treatments requires fresh abortion. While perhaps you specifically taking a vaccine is not promoting this, it is a package deal. All of these things are building on each other and it is very unlikely that the trend of aggressive fetal cell research is going to slack or stop if we as Christians are apathetic about using it. Even if we do take a stand, its very unlikely to change anything in the secular world, but we will not be participating in the gains from abortion.

First off, the very fact that people openly discuss the ethics of vaccines is important, I think that epidemiologists are seeing that this matters to a lot of people. This is a reason that I looked for a vaccine that seemed ethical to me, at least at the time. I don't think I can stop abortion from happening, I doubt very much that vaccines are the cause of abortion or the reason that these children are being killed.

If your basic ethical stance is that you will not do anything that "participates in the gains from abortion", I can understand and respect that. And I do appreciate you sharing, I want to hear what you have to say.

My basic ethical stance is to preserve the lives of people who are now alive, either in the womb or after birth. But I don't want to do anything to encourage new abortions. Or to increase the risk that people might die of Covid-19.

[Bootstrap]

We keep circling this question on multiple threads and its been answered several times to positions of several members on the forum. I doubt my position is unknown, your position is fairly well known. I presented some ethical analysis for you to consider in a previous post if you care to respond to answers to your question.

I was in my editor responding to them while you posted this.

I don't think I completely understand your position yet, I know that you are hard line against vaccines, I don't yet understand how you weigh that against risk to people now living. Maybe the answer is that you are simply unwilling to do anything that profits from abortion, even if it means risking the lives of other people now living. If so, I can respect that, but I have not heard you say that. As I understand your position, I think you do believe that Covid-19 kills significant numbers of people.

Perhaps you do understand my position, but there are some places where my position is not yet fully formed. I'm really not interested in a debate to prove whose position is right, I am more interested in understanding the reasons behind various views on this question.

[JimFoxvog]

You are essentially describing child sacrifices for your own health, I really it's real ingrained way of thinking, but extrapolate out what you're saying with some equivalent scenarios.

If I am murdered, I would still like my body to be used for science. It would be great if my murdered body could in some way save some lives. If I were murdered, would you reject any benefit that might come to you from the use of my body?

Jesus being murdered was the worst sin in the world. I benefit from it. Is that immoral?

[RZehr]

I was in my editor responding to them while you posted this.

I don't think I completely understand your position yet, I know that you are hard line against vaccines, I don't yet understand how you weigh that against risk to people now living. Maybe the answer is that you are simply unwilling to do anything that profits from abortion, even if it means risking the lives of other people now living. If so, I can respect that, but I have not heard you say that. As I understand your position, I think you do believe that Covid-19 kills significant numbers of people.

Perhaps you do understand my position, but there are some places where my position is not yet fully formed. I'm really not interested in a debate to prove whose position is right, I am more interested in understanding the reasons behind various views on this question.

I don't think he is hard line against vaccines. He is hard line against vaccines that have a link to abortion.