Personal convictions?

[Heirbyadoption]

... my question rises back to the surface and I will expand it for clarity - do the Scriptures forbid enforced uniformity beyond the specifics given in Scripture, do they give permission/command to enforce uniformity beyond the specifics given in the Scriptures, or are they silent (ergo, by assumption, neutral) and therefore its up to the congregation to establish or not establish and enforce forms and applications as they will in order to create their desired levels of uniformity?

I'm uncomfortable with the way you ask the question. Uniformity is not a New Testament virtue.

I understand why it makes you uncomfortable. It does me as well. But I ask it from an anabaptist context, in a way anabaptists can understand.

Uniformity is not a New Testament virtue. Righteousness and holiness, love, the fruit of the Spirit, trusting Jesus, loving God and neighbor ... these are at the heart of things. I would urge anyone to start by asking what is at the heart of New Testament Christianity and pick applications and practices that support that best. It's about the wine, not the wineskins.

But as we pick wineskins, we should also be wary of letting the wineskins take the front seat. If we spend more time and energy on the wineskins than the wine, then we should reexamine the wineskins. Any wineskins, anywhere along the spectrum of Christian faith and practice.

Do I then understand you see no violation of the Scriptures in picking applications and practices, so long as they lend themselves to the wine? That would be the claim of every Anabaptist church, both those stuck on the wineskins and those producing good wine... The test seems to be when old wineskins don't work with new wine, doesn't it...?

So I would turn the question around: to what extent does pursuing uniformity help people focus on the things at the heart of the New Testament? How does it affect your relationship with other brethren who are also pursuing these things? How does it affect your ministry to the neighbors we are called to love?

As you look at this question, you also have to consider ALL of the effects an enforced uniformity will have, not just some of the good looking ones... Just a thought.

[Bootstrap]

The test seems to be when old wineskins don't work with new wine, doesn't it...?

So I would turn the question around: to what extent does pursuing uniformity help people focus on the things at the heart of the New Testament? How does it affect your relationship with other brethren who are also pursuing these things? How does it affect your ministry to the neighbors we are called to love?

As you look at this question, you also have to consider ALL of the effects an enforced uniformity will have, not just some of the good looking ones... Just a thought.

Yes, I agree. For instance, does an enforced uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard? Does that depend on the kind of uniformity and how it is lived out?

[Heirbyadoption]

Does an enforced uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard? Does that depend on the kind of uniformity and how it is lived out?

I would rephrase your question as:

Does an enforced uniformity beyond the specifics given in the Scriptures create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

In my experience, yes to the first, it does. And to the second, it can and I have seen it many times.

But then there's your last question:

Does that (the answers to Questions 1 and 2) depend on the kind of uniformity and how it is lived out?

You might have to expand on "the kind of uniformity", but regardless, 1 and 2 do indeed set the stage to allow for the answers I gave, whether someone else has experienced them to be the case or not. I'm not pursuing this conversation to debunk Anabaptism, just for the record, but we need to be honest about the effects of our choices, and as a people, we have often glossed them over. It's a bit like bringing a pitbull puppy home from the pound - he CAN be the greatest child protector in the world, but he WILL pee on the carpet occasionally, and he CAN turn vicious, whether we have experienced it or not.

[RZehr]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

[Wade]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

Depends on how a person defines and sees uniformity and the difference of it with conformity. Where's Silentreader on this?

[silentreader]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

Depends on how a person defines and sees uniformity and the difference of it with conformity. Where's Silentreader on this?

watching

[silentreader]

... my question rises back to the surface and I will expand it for clarity - do the Scriptures forbid enforced uniformity beyond the specifics given in Scripture, do they give permission/command to enforce uniformity beyond the specifics given in the Scriptures, or are they silent (ergo, by assumption, neutral) and therefore its up to the congregation to establish or not establish and enforce forms and applications as they will in order to create their desired levels of uniformity?

I'm uncomfortable with the way you ask the question. Uniformity is not a New Testament virtue. Righteousness and holiness, love, the fruit of the Spirit, trusting Jesus, loving God and neighbor ... these are at the heart of things. I would urge anyone to start by asking what is at the heart of New Testament Christianity and pick applications and practices that support that best. It's about the wine, not the wineskins.

But we cannot hold the wine with wineskins, so as we pick wineskins we should also be wary of letting the wineskins take the front seat. If we spend more time and energy on the wineskins than the wine, then we should reexamine the wineskins. Any wineskins, anywhere along the spectrum of Christian faith and practice.

So I would turn the question around: to what extent does pursuing uniformity help people focus on the things at the heart of the New Testament? How does it affect your relationship with other brethren who are also pursuing these things? How does it affect your ministry to the neighbors we are called to love? I can't judge that for your churches, and your experiences may be very different than mine, but I think it's important to ask this kind of question.

Boot, did you mean without?

[RZehr]

Well, does a lack of uniformity create a culture that makes it harder for people to notice and speak up if something might be wrong? Can it lead to a culture that judges spirituality by standards different from the New Testament standard?

Depends on how a person defines and sees uniformity and the difference of it with conformity. Where's Silentreader on this?

watching

Silently reading?

[silentreader]

Depends on how a person defines and sees uniformity and the difference of it with conformity. Where's Silentreader on this?

watching

Silently reading?

[Bootstrap]

But we cannot hold the wine with wineskins, so as we pick wineskins we should also be wary of letting the wineskins take the front seat. If we spend more time and energy on the wineskins than the wine, then we should reexamine the wineskins. Any wineskins, anywhere along the spectrum of Christian faith and practice.

Boot, did you mean without?

Yes, thanks for catching that. I type faster than I think.