Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 7:14 am
Because they believe they are when they are willing to lay down their lives for others.
People who go to war aren't laying down their lives for others. They're doing the best they can to snuff out other people's lives - and are generally willing to "sacrifice" the lives of "enemy" civilians to save their own skin.
That’s how Mennonites view it but how many in the military have you had relationship with in your life?
I’ve known & listened to myriads none of which conveyed that. At all. As the saying goes, if you enjoy your freedom, thank a soldier. They risk their lives for you.
I did not say they do not risk their lives. They certainly do.
What they do not do is lay down their lives.
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 7:14 am
Because they believe they are when they are willing to lay down their lives for others.
People who go to war aren't laying down their lives for others. They're doing the best they can to snuff out other people's lives - and are generally willing to "sacrifice" the lives of "enemy" civilians to save their own skin.
That’s how Mennonites view it but how many in the military have you had relationship with in your life?
I’ve known & listened to myriads none of which conveyed that. At all. As the saying goes, if you enjoy your freedom, thank a soldier. They risk their lives for you.
Some, including an uncle with a purple heart for being wounded in combat. This may surprise you but I spent a lot of time around friends and neighbors who were not mennonite in my youth and even more so now. I respect their beliefs about war and service just as I respect Muslims or Jews for their beliefs, but I don't completely agree with any of them.
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 6:47 pm
Our salvation and freedom don't come from.soldiers or guns.or violence. Freedom is found in the way of the cross.
I agree, and I don't think we need to do shamed into silence for that belief. Currently it's not popular to question the authority of Mars, the God of war, because he is respected by many who believe in his power. The day will come when Americans will be stripped of that belief and it would be good for the church to have a firmer foundation for security.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 12:40 pm
People who go to war aren't laying down their lives for others. They're doing the best they can to snuff out other people's lives - and are generally willing to "sacrifice" the lives of "enemy" civilians to save their own skin.
That’s how Mennonites view it but how many in the military have you had relationship with in your life?
I’ve known & listened to myriads none of which conveyed that. At all. As the saying goes, if you enjoy your freedom, thank a soldier. They risk their lives for you.
Some, including an uncle with a purple heart for being wounded in combat. This may surprise you but I spent a lot of time around friends and neighbors who were not mennonite in my youth and even more so now. I respect their beliefs about war and service just as I respect Muslims or Jews for their beliefs, but I don't completely agree with any of them.
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 6:47 pm
Our salvation and freedom don't come from.soldiers or guns.or violence. Freedom is found in the way of the cross.
I agree, and I don't think we need to do shamed into silence for that belief. Currently it's not popular to question the authority of Mars, the God of war, because he is respected by many who believe in his power. The day will come when Americans will be stripped of that belief and it would be good for the church to have a firmer foundation for security.
I agree with where true freedom comes from but a lot of Christians with true freedom also suffer in countries and do not have the freedom you have “here” that comes at a cost by others.
Valerie wrote:I agree with where true freedom comes from but a lot of Christians with true freedom also suffer in countries and do not have the freedom you have “here” that comes at a cost by others.
It is not always God's will to keep his people out of the fire, like Daniel's three friends he allows it at times but only for the time and purpose he alone knows.
I'm grateful for the blessings I experience but they are gifts from the hand of God, not from violent men even though God may use such things. I also try to respect the beliefs of the people around me, including those who believe in the power of redemptive violence and the sincerity of the soldiers who fought sacrificially but in the end I choose to credit all good things to Jesus alone.
Here is the response of an early church father, Origen of Alexandria, when pressed why the church does not assist the Emperor in his wars. I wish believers today could sustain the clear eyed view necessary to give this response.
"And as we by our prayers vanquish all demons who stir up war, and lead to the violation of oaths, and disturb the peace, we in this way are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them. And we do take our part in public affairs, when along with righteous prayers we join self-denying exercises and meditations, which teach us to despise pleasures, and not to be led away by them. And none fight better for the king than we do. We do not indeed fight under him, although he require it; but we fight on his behalf, forming a special army— an army of piety— by offering our prayers to God."
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 1:44 am
I’m not elevating them above Jesus, but Jesus did not condemn being a soldier. You say “some” but you have to admit “most” Christians do not interpret Jesus to condemn serving your country as your “job” ...
But does killing foreigners really serve one's country? As one who lives in the USA, I don't see that the conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran served the country at all.
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 1:44 am
I’m not elevating them above Jesus, but Jesus did not condemn being a soldier. You say “some” but you have to admit “most” Christians do not interpret Jesus to condemn serving your country as your “job” ...
But does killing foreigners really serve one's country? As one who lives in the USA, I don't see that the conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran served the country at all.
Are there any wars that you would say have served the country in some way?
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 1:44 am
I’m not elevating them above Jesus, but Jesus did not condemn being a soldier...
It might be good respond to this argument claiming Jesus' allowance or support for fighting in wars. We don't know everything Jesus said in this situation so it is at best an argument from silence. Clearly the early church did not understand this as a blanket approval. This is the equivalent of using Jesus interaction with Zaccheus to justify fraud because it is not recorded Jesus openly condemned that behavior or his interaction with the woman at the well justify leaving your spouse and living with another.
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2026 1:44 am
I’m not elevating them above Jesus, but Jesus did not condemn being a soldier. You say “some” but you have to admit “most” Christians do not interpret Jesus to condemn serving your country as your “job” ...
But does killing foreigners really serve one's country? As one who lives in the USA, I don't see that the conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran served the country at all.
Would you extend this feeling to the Civil War? The Revolutionary War? Or World War II?
