We don't need to be afraid of CRT

General Christian Theology
joshuabgood

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by joshuabgood »

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:51 pm Whose music style should be used in an ethnically mixed congregation? If a mixture, then everyone may well be either bored or bothered part of the time. It might be manageable if there are only two cultural groups, but what about those who are only a few members, out of a hundred, that represent other minority cultures?
Whose preaching style will be used?
Whose dress & conduct standards will be followed (if any)?
Whose language would be used? (It is interesting that the Scripture doesn't say what language was used in the Jerusalem congregation, where we know both Aramaic and Greek speaking Jewish people belonged.)

As an example:
While we were in Brazil, we worshiped with three different cultural groups, none of which represented our own cultural or faith background.
Brazilian (language: Portuguese): a Pentecostal congregation made up of "river people" (some of the poorest of the poor, some of them illiterate squatters, none of whom owned a vehicle). Occasional sermons by visiting American Pentecostals, which were sometimes "teaching" everyone how to dance. (I had Brazilian friends in this congregation, like one of the mission center groundskeepers who always made a point to ask how the translation work was going, and was always friendly to the Indians when they were out with us. He regarded his work cutting grass and such as a part of the work of giving the Scripture to the isolated peoples of his country.)
Village (Language: Banawa): Services at night, at first out-doors, around a "singing pole" stuck in the ground in the middle of the airstrip. Music: a sort of chanting style, prayer, and a Scripture reading (when they requested it)
Mission Center (Language: English, although we had members, besides North Americans, on our mission center who were British, German, Dutch, Swiss, Argentine, & Brazilian): A mixture of Evangelical & Mainline Protestant mission members, sometimes Episcopalian

I also grew up in a mixed congregation, although it was a majority of "Russian Mennonite" Plautdietsch people (like myself). There were also Americans who had come in from the outside, American Indians, some who had married in, and others where both parents were Indian. There was also one "white"-Black inter-ethnic couple. But these people mostly adapted to the Mennonite ways, although potlucks increasingly included foods from a number of different ethnicities.
I think there is beauty in diversity. My life would be a lot less rich if I hadn't learned to like all the different music styles. I would advocate for some intentional cross congregational work. Invite the black pastor from the neighboring congregation to speak at your church. Invite the black choir to sing. Send your children to their Bible schools sometimes. I had the privilege, even as a child, or singing in white choirs and groups, in neighboring black churches. Of course, we stayed and listened to their choirs sing and their preachers. (Sadly, I don't recall that we ever in our congregation invited in their choirs.) My life would be poorer if I hadn't had those experiences.

Some of the richest times of fellowship I have had, though were in a multicultural church setting. Where the music styles varied based on who led worship. Where the preachings styles shifted based on who preached. Where, for a number of years, the language switched depending on which service you went to.
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Josh

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Josh »

I think there is beauty in diversity. My life would be a lot less rich if I hadn't learned to like all the different music styles.
Other cultures don’t exist for our own entertainment and should not be viewed much as choosing Mexican or Chinese food at a shopping-mall food court. The idea of inviting a “black choir” simply because it is exotic / different than your own reveals a deep lack of respect.

You should be sharing singing and worshipping with one another because of real bonds, not out of a desire to enjoy a new unique sound or to make your life “rich”.
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joshuabgood

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by joshuabgood »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:04 pm
I think there is beauty in diversity. My life would be a lot less rich if I hadn't learned to like all the different music styles.
Other cultures don’t exist for our own entertainment and should not be viewed much as choosing Mexican or Chinese food at a shopping-mall food court. The idea of inviting a “black choir” simply because it is exotic / different than your own reveals a deep lack of respect.

You should be sharing singing and worshipping with one another because of real bonds, not out of a desire to enjoy a new unique sound or to make your life “rich”.

As a musician, it is about the artistic beauty. That beauty glorifies God. The kaleidoscope of artistic expression is part of the goodness of God given to us. And that singularity and uniqueness of worship styles brings new facets of meaning. That is what I was speaking to...not some novel side show. Hopefully that clears that up for you.
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Neto

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Neto »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:01 pm
Neto wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:51 pm Whose music style should be used in an ethnically mixed congregation? If a mixture, then everyone may well be either bored or bothered part of the time. It might be manageable if there are only two cultural groups, but what about those who are only a few members, out of a hundred, that represent other minority cultures?
Whose preaching style will be used?
Whose dress & conduct standards will be followed (if any)?
Whose language would be used? (It is interesting that the Scripture doesn't say what language was used in the Jerusalem congregation, where we know both Aramaic and Greek speaking Jewish people belonged.)

As an example:
While we were in Brazil, we worshiped with three different cultural groups, none of which represented our own cultural or faith background.
Brazilian (language: Portuguese): a Pentecostal congregation made up of "river people" (some of the poorest of the poor, some of them illiterate squatters, none of whom owned a vehicle). Occasional sermons by visiting American Pentecostals, which were sometimes "teaching" everyone how to dance. (I had Brazilian friends in this congregation, like one of the mission center groundskeepers who always made a point to ask how the translation work was going, and was always friendly to the Indians when they were out with us. He regarded his work cutting grass and such as a part of the work of giving the Scripture to the isolated peoples of his country.)
Village (Language: Banawa): Services at night, at first out-doors, around a "singing pole" stuck in the ground in the middle of the airstrip. Music: a sort of chanting style, prayer, and a Scripture reading (when they requested it)
Mission Center (Language: English, although we had members, besides North Americans, on our mission center who were British, German, Dutch, Swiss, Argentine, & Brazilian): A mixture of Evangelical & Mainline Protestant mission members, sometimes Episcopalian

I also grew up in a mixed congregation, although it was a majority of "Russian Mennonite" Plautdietsch people (like myself). There were also Americans who had come in from the outside, American Indians, some who had married in, and others where both parents were Indian. There was also one "white"-Black inter-ethnic couple. But these people mostly adapted to the Mennonite ways, although potlucks increasingly included foods from a number of different ethnicities.
I think there is beauty in diversity. My life would be a lot less rich if I hadn't learned to like all the different music styles. I would advocate for some intentional cross congregational work. Invite the black pastor from the neighboring congregation to speak at your church. Invite the black choir to sing. Send your children to their Bible schools sometimes. I had the privilege, even as a child, or singing in white choirs and groups, in neighboring black churches. Of course, we stayed and listened to their choirs sing and their preachers. (Sadly, I don't recall that we ever in our congregation invited in their choirs.) My life would be poorer if I hadn't had those experiences.

Some of the richest times of fellowship I have had, though were in a multicultural church setting. Where the music styles varied based on who led worship. Where the preachings styles shifted based on who preached. Where, for a number of years, the language switched depending on which service you went to.
I suppose that many people here may feel the same as I, that we are in some sense "Bi-cultural". As I've mentioned before, I grew up among American Indians - I was a minority ("Russian Mennonite") among the minority ("white") in our local school. I have sung songs in at least one North American Indian language, and also put a Scripture to music in their language - Cheyenne. I became further culturally mixed up by being immersed in the Banawa culture, by becoming a part of it. I have also composed songs in their language, and I am deeply moved in hearing them sing as well. I have worshiped in predominantly Black churches with Black friends who belonged there. I have sung along in languages I do not speak at all, in Indian Leadership conferences where we all sang together in the different languages of the participants. I also enjoy singing a'capella, even though it is not my background. (I confess, however, that I find it difficult with the modern "worship songs", perhaps mainly because I find so much strange doctrine in them, and I don't like the endless repetition. Strangely, though, I don't mind the repetition in native languages such as Banawa singing, but then that is the way they speak as well, when telling stories. It is a characteristic of oral languages. Is English becoming an oral language? Something I haven't though about before.)
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Sliceitup
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Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Sliceitup »

RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:10 am
Sliceitup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:55 pm
RZehr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:30 pm Sudsy,
To me there is a pretty significant difference between the two. I’d personally tilt in favor of being excommunicated even severely, such as having to eat at a separate table. I find that more than a smidgen more accommodating than literally getting my head chopped off. I’d also find severe excommunication the way the Amish practice as more preferable than the economic sabotage of the woke left.
If you think the Amish method of shunning doesn’t involve some hefty economic shunning then I got a bridge to sell you.
Okay that is news to me. What does it entail? Things such as refusing to be in partnership? Refusing to hire a the excommunicated person, maybe because of bad influence? Refusing to personally patronize the excommunicated persons business?

Or do the Amish go as far as putting what they don’t like about the person online, social media etc., and call for a all out boycott for by everyone, pressure the customers to take their business elsewhere, shame their customers, and attempt to sue the person out of business? That is how the world does. The world will be outraged without first hand knowledge, mob style. Doesn’t matter if they know little about the situation and don’t know the person.

I would imagine the Amish are intimately knowledgeable about the person and aren’t out to ruin the person. But I don’t know. I didn’t know they did at all. At the end of the day, King David cast himself on the mercy of God instead of choosing a punishment. As such, I’d rather be punished by the people of God any day, that to take the treatment of the wicked.
The Amish aren’t supposed to exchange money with people who are shunned. Some take this very literally and won’t sell goods to you. Or they’ll make you lay the money on the counter, rather than take it from your hand. Or they’ll insist you bring someone else to do the transaction.

Let’s say you’re a young Amish man with a family. You work for an Amish employer, like most Amish people do. Or if you own a business then most of your employees are Amish. You own a home, but your parents loaned you a good amount of the money for it. Or maybe you rent, which would surely be from an Amish person.

Now let’s walk through the logistics of all that. You’re going to need a new job because most Amish employers won’t keep someone in their employ who is shunned. You’re also going to need to find a new home with a non Amish landlord, or find alternate financing for your home because your parents are likely to call in the loan if you leave.

If you own a business and have Amish employees then you’re going to need a lot of new workers. Maybe you just have a small produce farm and many of your church member’s children work for you, picking tomatoes and peppers. Suddenly you lose those employees. Maybe your wife has a side business where she sells quilts and other Amish women sew and quilt them. Boom, there goes that business.

We haven’t even gotten to health insurance, homeowners insurance, etc. Or the idea that the majority of your social network is within the church.

You say you’d rather be punished by the people of God any day. What warrants punishment? Does not wearing your plain hat and no longer attending church services seem to be a good reason to lose your job and your home? Does buying a car warrant losing your income?

When you’re inside that world it can be amazing because there’s a great support system. But because everything, EVERYTHING, is so intertwined, it’s like free falling when you step outside. Your family, church, education, career, home, friends, health insurance, etc. are all wrapped up in one church system.
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Sliceitup
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Affiliation: Keystone, for now

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Sliceitup »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:04 pm
I think there is beauty in diversity. My life would be a lot less rich if I hadn't learned to like all the different music styles.
Other cultures don’t exist for our own entertainment and should not be viewed much as choosing Mexican or Chinese food at a shopping-mall food court. The idea of inviting a “black choir” simply because it is exotic / different than your own reveals a deep lack of respect.

You should be sharing singing and worshipping with one another because of real bonds, not out of a desire to enjoy a new unique sound or to make your life “rich”.
Fascinating how you got that from JBGood’s words. Maybe disturbing is more accurate though.
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Neto

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Neto »

Sliceitup wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:18 pm
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:10 am
Sliceitup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:55 pm

If you think the Amish method of shunning doesn’t involve some hefty economic shunning then I got a bridge to sell you.
Okay that is news to me. What does it entail? Things such as refusing to be in partnership? Refusing to hire a the excommunicated person, maybe because of bad influence? Refusing to personally patronize the excommunicated persons business?

Or do the Amish go as far as putting what they don’t like about the person online, social media etc., and call for a all out boycott for by everyone, pressure the customers to take their business elsewhere, shame their customers, and attempt to sue the person out of business? That is how the world does. The world will be outraged without first hand knowledge, mob style. Doesn’t matter if they know little about the situation and don’t know the person.

I would imagine the Amish are intimately knowledgeable about the person and aren’t out to ruin the person. But I don’t know. I didn’t know they did at all. At the end of the day, King David cast himself on the mercy of God instead of choosing a punishment. As such, I’d rather be punished by the people of God any day, that to take the treatment of the wicked.
The Amish aren’t supposed to exchange money with people who are shunned. Some take this very literally and won’t sell goods to you. Or they’ll make you lay the money on the counter, rather than take it from your hand. Or they’ll insist you bring someone else to do the transaction.

Let’s say you’re a young Amish man with a family. You work for an Amish employer, like most Amish people do. Or if you own a business then most of your employees are Amish. You own a home, but your parents loaned you a good amount of the money for it. Or maybe you rent, which would surely be from an Amish person.

Now let’s walk through the logistics of all that. You’re going to need a new job because most Amish employers won’t keep someone in their employ who is shunned. You’re also going to need to find a new home with a non Amish landlord, or find alternate financing for your home because your parents are likely to call in the loan if you leave.

If you own a business and have Amish employees then you’re going to need a lot of new workers. Maybe you just have a small produce farm and many of your church member’s children work for you, picking tomatoes and peppers. Suddenly you lose those employees. Maybe your wife has a side business where she sells quilts and other Amish women sew and quilt them. Boom, there goes that business.

We haven’t even gotten to health insurance, homeowners insurance, etc. Or the idea that the majority of your social network is within the church.

You say you’d rather be punished by the people of God any day. What warrants punishment? Does not wearing your plain hat and no longer attending church services seem to be a good reason to lose your job and your home? Does buying a car warrant losing your income?

When you’re inside that world it can be amazing because there’s a great support system. But because everything, EVERYTHING, is so intertwined, it’s like free falling when you step outside. Your family, church, education, career, home, friends, health insurance, etc. are all wrapped up in one church system.
Living among the Amish as we do, I've heard some stories, first hand, from people who came to our congregation. But I won't pink on someone else's people, I'll pick on my own. When the first MB congregation formed out of the "Big Church" in the Molotschna Mennonite colony in Russia (1860), their opponents did refuse to do business with them. They also refused to pay debts they owed to them, and at the same time took them to the law to pay up the debts they owed. Many lost their businesses and homes. They also did all they could to prevent their official recognition as a legitimate Mennonite church by the Russian authorities. (This would mean that they would loose the military exemption granted to Mennonites when they settled in Russia.) They were pushed to move out of the colony, but at the same time, denied the necessary Russian visa required for any travel outside the colony.
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Robert
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Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Robert »

Szdfan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:02 pm Ethiopia has the largest Mennonite denomination in the world, but I would agree that while I’m aware of a number of “ethnic” Mennonite congregations in North America there are many more white or mostly white Mennonite churches.
African Mennonite Brethren far outnumber US Mennonite Brethren.
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Neto

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Neto »

Robert wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:04 pm
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:02 pm Ethiopia has the largest Mennonite denomination in the world, but I would agree that while I’m aware of a number of “ethnic” Mennonite congregations in North America there are many more white or mostly white Mennonite churches.
African Mennonite Brethren far outnumber US Mennonite Brethren.
India also far out-numbers even both Canada & the States put together by nearly 4 times. Africa MB membership figures are more than twice those for Canada and the States. So there are many times more MB "members of color" than there are "whites". The MB conference in Brazil, an immigration destination country for my people, is very likely now more non-Plautdietsch people, although many southern Brazilians could be classified as 'white'.
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Szdfan

Re: We don't need to be afraid of CRT

Post by Szdfan »

Neto wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:40 pm
Robert wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:04 pm
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:02 pm Ethiopia has the largest Mennonite denomination in the world, but I would agree that while I’m aware of a number of “ethnic” Mennonite congregations in North America there are many more white or mostly white Mennonite churches.
African Mennonite Brethren far outnumber US Mennonite Brethren.
India also far out-numbers even both Canada & the States put together by nearly 4 times. Africa MB membership figures are more than twice those for Canada and the States. So there are many times more MB "members of color" than there are "whites". The MB conference in Brazil, an immigration destination country for my people, is very likely now more non-Plautdietsch people, although many southern Brazilians could be classified as 'white'.
So how many of us have regular interactions and relationships with these non-white Mennonites in the US and other parts of the world?
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