Prayers for the Catholic Church

[JayP]

As I commented about being glad I am Catholic because playing by different rules means I don’t have to play your game.

Now, it is fine to discuss some of the reason8ng for or against any groups theology, but eventually you just end up saying you see it differently.

I do not have a scripture or theology problem with believing some that die are in heaven now. Others do.
But I do not think either side can make unimpeachable arguments that “your side” is right.

Do we know that those that believe there was a miracle via their veneration of a saints relic comes from the relic versus their belief?
The hem of Jesus’ robe did not heal the hemorrhaging woman….her faith did. Many who held an equal faith have not been healed.
I am equally sure many who are convinced they are SO. faithful may find out they are not. Both life and scripture show us many WE might not suspect, Jesus finds “not far from the kingdom”.

[Valerie]

They are not “dead” they are alive with Christ. As said in Revelations the saints are in heaven and certainly can pray.

Where precisely do you find this?

How do you reconcile it with Paul who says in 1 Thess. "the dead in Christ will rise first"?

Because their spirit will join their bodies. At death your spirit leaves your physical body. How do you reconcile Apostle Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Or the thief on the cross who joined Christ the day of his death?

Hebrews 12:

“22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.“

Will have to look through Revelations

[Ken]

As I commented about being glad I am Catholic because playing by different rules means I don’t have to play your game.

Now, it is fine to discuss some of the reason8ng for or against any groups theology, but eventually you just end up saying you see it differently.

I do not have a scripture or theology problem with believing some that die are in heaven now. Others do.
But I do not think either side can make unimpeachable arguments that “your side” is right.

Do we know that those that believe there was a miracle via their veneration of a saints relic comes from the relic versus their belief?
The hem of Jesus’ robe did not heal the hemorrhaging woman….her faith did. Many who held an equal faith have not been healed.
I am equally sure many who are convinced they are SO. faithful may find out they are not. Both life and scripture show us many WE might not suspect, Jesus finds “not far from the kingdom”.

The Catholic church doesn't claim that it was the faith of a 4-year old boy that cured him.

They claim it was a miracle conducted from the grave through a relic of clothing.

[Soloist]

Because their spirit will join their bodies. At death your spirit leaves your physical body. How do you reconcile Apostle Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Or the thief on the cross who joined Christ the day of his death?

Thief on the cross did not immediately go to heaven at least as Jesus didn’t either until after He rose from the grave.

[Valerie]

As I commented about being glad I am Catholic because playing by different rules means I don’t have to play your game.

Now, it is fine to discuss some of the reason8ng for or against any groups theology, but eventually you just end up saying you see it differently.

I do not have a scripture or theology problem with believing some that die are in heaven now. Others do.
But I do not think either side can make unimpeachable arguments that “your side” is right.

Do we know that those that believe there was a miracle via their veneration of a saints relic comes from the relic versus their belief?
The hem of Jesus’ robe did not heal the hemorrhaging woman….her faith did. Many who held an equal faith have not been healed.
I am equally sure many who are convinced they are SO. faithful may find out they are not. Both life and scripture show us many WE might not suspect, Jesus finds “not far from the kingdom”.

The Catholic church doesn't claim that it was the faith of a 4-year old boy that cured him.

They claim it was a miracle conducted from the grave through a relic of clothing.

Because that can happen. I still believe in miracles just as in time of the OT & NT. These aren’t unknown by Scripture. The relics of Elisha raised a dead man to life. Maybe a read through the book of Acts would be beneficial. But I’m also mindful of Jesus’ very words “When the Son of man comes, will He find faith in all the world?” Do we know faith is waning before His Second Advent, except among those who still believe in miracles.

[Valerie]

Because their spirit will join their bodies. At death your spirit leaves your physical body. How do you reconcile Apostle Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Or the thief on the cross who joined Christ the day of his death?

Thief on the cross did not immediately go to heaven at least as Jesus didn’t either until after He rose from the grave.

Apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
What does that mean to you?

[Valerie]

Because their spirit will join their bodies. At death your spirit leaves your physical body. How do you reconcile Apostle Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Or the thief on the cross who joined Christ the day of his death?

Thief on the cross did not immediately go to heaven at least as Jesus didn’t either until after He rose from the grave.

Apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
What does that mean to you?

[temporal1]

^^Not intended to end the interesting discussion above.
A stand-alone note:

The Latin mass is an interesting turn with Pope Leo.
If i understood, Pope Francis didn’t want it.

Cardinal Burke was one i hoped might be Pope. i realize he’s had health problems for years.
(Click the visit option below.)

lettersfromstpaul
Cardinal Raymond Burke will celebrate a Solemn Pontifical Traditional Latin Mass at the Altar of the Chair in St. Peter’s Basilica on October 25, 2025, during the Summorum Pontificum pilgrimage (October 24–26).
This marks the return of the tradition after a hiatus in 2023 and 2024, when authorization was not granted for the Mass to be held at that altar. The pilgrimage, in its 14th year, draws faithful from around the world devoted to the traditional liturgy (“ad Petri Sedem”).

Cardinal Burke, a prominent traditionalist figure formerly out of favor under Pope Francis, has recently met with Pope Leo XIV, including a private audience on August 22, and received his congratulations for his 50th anniversary of priestly ordination in July.
The reauthorization is regarded by proponents as a hopeful sign of renewed openness to the ancient rite.

[Valerie]

FWIIW, miracles attributed to a saint is a pretty good confirmation they are in heaven,

Are they? Or are we simply drawing conclusions from their life story. Let's take the example of the latest saint, the teenager Carlo Acutis and the two miracles attributed to him, which both occurred AFTER his death. He died in 2006.

In the first miracle the description is as follows:

In 2013 on the death anniversary of Acutis, Luciana Vianna had taken to Mass her 4-year-old son, Mattheus, who had the congenital defect of an annular pancreas which made eating difficult. Beforehand, she had prayed a novena asking for Acutis's intercession. During the prayer service following Mass, Mattheus kissed the clothing relic of Acutis and asked he should not "throw up as much". Immediately following the Mass, he told his mother that he felt healed and asked for solid foods when they arrived home. Until then, he had been on an all-liquid diet. His doctors subsequently confirmed a normal appearing pancreas by ultrasound.

And the description of the second miracle is as follows:

On 23 May 2024, Pope Francis recognised a second miracle attributed to the intercession of Acutis.The miracle attributed to his intercession occurred in 2022, when a Costa Rican woman named Valeria Valverde had fallen off her bike in Florence, Italy, and suffered a brain haemorrhage with doctors giving her a low chance of survival. Her mother, Lilliana, prayed for the intercession of Acutis and visited his tomb. The same day, Valverde began to breathe independently again and was able to walk the next day with all evidence of the haemorrhage having disappeared.

I mean...OK, whatever. Maybe those were miracles, maybe not. Sick kids get better all the time. But there is nothing Biblical about the notion that dead people perform miracles.

This is right out of the Bible
2 Kings 13:

“20 Elisha died and was buried.

Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. 21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.“

I imagine most of us that fall under the Protestant category are challenged with the idea that relics could without even prayer, or faith for a miracle such as the example above, could perform such a miracle. But it is Scriptural.

I think the ancient churches of Catholics (western Church) and Eastern Orthodox (Eastern Church) continued the original faith that miracles did and do happen.

Another challenge for Protestants (any denomination not of the original Church) is after the Reformation if you can’t find it in Scripture than reject it.

However the original Church began with the Holy Spurit and with both Oral and written instruction-not everything was written but understood by oral teachings by Jesus and the Apostles as well. (Example 2 Thessalonians 2:15 : therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. By our WORD indicates teachings that were not written down)

[Valerie]

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... the-saints

I found this article which answers from the Catholic Church typical contentions from Protestants on some of these issues.
What do you think Jay?
Note: it has an audible option.

Most of my Christian journey of several decades I had same oppositions.