Modern Day Pharisees

[GaryK]

Let’s say Boot is a Pharisee. How would you prove that wrong?

Or myself. Feel free to pick on me too.

Why put specific people on trial to point fingers at them? Isn't that what the Pharisees loved to do?

Yes, and Jesus was not afraid to point this out directly to them.

I think Pharisee religion is pretty natural to most human beings. I think that's what you get by default. If we do not want to be Pharisees, I think we have to keep turning to Scripture, by the Holy Spirit. So I would be very surprised if any of us is completely innocent of being a Pharisee. Who is in a position to cast the first stone?

I disagree that what we get by default is Pharisee religion. This may be true of Jewish people who have rejected Jesus as the Messiah. What all people get by default is a nature to sin.

I think a better question is this: When we fight sin, how do we do that in a Christlike way? How is that different from doing it like the Pharisees?

Follow Christ's example. He responded quite harshly to the Pharisees and more compassionately to those who weren't defensive of their sinfulness.

[GaryK]

Once again, you bring up the way we post on forums and that's what's at the heart of this discussion. Provide some examples of the way we post on forums that you think are problematic and then let's look at the scriptures to see if they are Pharisaical or not. That's what Valerie wanted from this thread.

Valerie, is that what you really want in this thread? That's not what I saw in the OP.

If that's really what's at the heart of this discussion, I really should drop out of this thread, because I have zero interest in that. I doubt it would be anything other than a stupid fight. I think it's much better to study what the Bible teaches and let each of us think about how to apply it in our lives.

And yet in your own thread, I think in the OP, you specifically mentioned the LGBTQ threads and also Phariseeism, which directly connected the discussion to posts on MN. If you were only interested in what the Bible has to say about the Pharisees and had no other reason to want to discuss it, you would not have brought up the LGBTQ threads. I'm not sure why you think it's stupid to discuss the very things you brought up.

[Bootstrap]

Once again, you bring up the way we post on forums and that's what's at the heart of this discussion. Provide some examples of the way we post on forums that you think are problematic and then let's look at the scriptures to see if they are Pharisaical or not. That's what Valerie wanted from this thread.

Valerie, is that what you really want in this thread? That's not what I saw in the OP.

If that's really what's at the heart of this discussion, I really should drop out of this thread, because I have zero interest in that. I doubt it would be anything other than a stupid fight. I think it's much better to study what the Bible teaches and let each of us think about how to apply it in our lives.

And yet in your own thread, I think in the OP, you specifically mentioned the LGBTQ threads and also Phariseeism, which directly connected the discussion to posts on MN. If you were only interested in what the Bible has to say about the Pharisees and had no other reason to want to discuss it, you would not have brought up the LGBTQ threads. I'm not sure why you think it's stupid to discuss the very things you brought up.

Actually, my original post in that thread mentions neither LGBTQ nor Phariseeism nor posts on MN.

You can read it here:

viewtopic.php?p=193516#p193516

Looking at that OP, I think it's consistent with the way I want to discuss these things.

[GaryK]

Valerie, is that what you really want in this thread? That's not what I saw in the OP.

If that's really what's at the heart of this discussion, I really should drop out of this thread, because I have zero interest in that. I doubt it would be anything other than a stupid fight. I think it's much better to study what the Bible teaches and let each of us think about how to apply it in our lives.

And yet in your own thread, I think in the OP, you specifically mentioned the LGBTQ threads and also Phariseeism, which directly connected the discussion to posts on MN. If you were only interested in what the Bible has to say about the Pharisees and had no other reason to want to discuss it, you would not have brought up the LGBTQ threads. I'm not sure why you think it's stupid to discuss the very things you brought up.

Actually, my original post in that thread mentions neither LGBTQ nor Phariseeism nor posts on MN.

You can read it here:

viewtopic.php?p=193516#p193516

Looking at that OP, I think it's consistent with the way I want to discuss these things.

Sorry, it was your 2nd post.

[Bootstrap]

I think most of us know what the scriptures say about these things and none of us believe we are Pharisaical.

Interesting.

I find these scriptures challenging. Precisely because practicing Christlike holiness and love is hard with real people - especially since I am a real person myself. I'm pretty sure that (1) I have not yet mastered what the Bible teaches on this subject and (2) I have a lot to learn about applying it in my own life.

I invited you to share before but you didn’t seem interested in sharing your own experience.

On the one side:

I think that people are distorting Scripture with all kinds of fancy arguments to justify gay marriage. I don't think we can ditch what the Bible teaches about gay sex or about creation as male and female without basically abandoning Scripture as a reliable guide for sexual ethics entirely. Those Scriptures are clear. I suspect the denomination I am in will have a significant split in the coming year over this issue. There are people who are angry at me for clearly expressing what Scripture teaches.

On the other side:

The LGBTQ people in my broader family have experienced real hate and contempt at times. I have seen it, and I cannot call it anything else. So have some LGBTQ people in my denomination. Sometimes from "fine religious" people. So when LGBTQ people say they have experienced these things, I believe them. I listen. I care. Sometimes they acknowledge that, telling me that I'm not a hater like some other people, and they sense that I love them. Sometimes they tell me that I can't really love them unless I accept "who they really are". Sometimes they kind of tell me both. They are confused that I seem to care but don't agree with them.

About a year ago:

When I gave a sermon on the woman caught in adultery, there was a young guest in the church who later confided to me, in confidentiality, that she is lesbian, and she felt safe telling me that. She asked if our church would welcome her. I told her we would welcome her, and that I think the love in our church is real, but we might not agree with her. About a month later, she found another church that agreed with her and left. I grieve about that kind of thing. I wish I knew how to do better.

[Bootstrap]

Interesting.

I find these scriptures challenging. Precisely because practicing Christlike holiness and love is hard with real people - especially since I am a real person myself. I'm pretty sure that (1) I have not yet mastered what the Bible teaches on this subject and (2) I have a lot to learn about applying it in my own life.

I invited you to share before but you didn’t seem interested in sharing your own experience.

Another example:

When I lived in Berlin, I had to work really late, and when I was driving home at perhaps 4 in the morning I heard a woman screaming. I stopped, and there was a young woman in hysterics, saying she had just been raped. I offered to drive her to the hospital. As we were driving, she told me she was a prostitute.

I was taking her to a Christian hospital associated with the church I was going to, it was right next to the church, I knew most of the nurses. I was actually concerned what they might think of me when I came to the hospital with a prostitute, but I let that one go. As we were driving, the prostitute told me how grateful she was, and offered to reward my kindness if I wanted to meet her some time. Didn't know what to do with that one. I told her I am a Christian and wouldn't do that kind of thing, she said she would really like to get to know me. Didn't know what to do with that either.

At the hospital, she slipped me a piece of paper with her contact information. On the way home, I tossed that paper into a trash can. I didn't want that kind of temptation. Afterward, I wondered if I had done the right thing. Perhaps I could have introduced her to some women in my church? Or met with her together with my wife? But I also didn't want my wife or anyone else to wonder about anything involving me and a very attractive young prostitute.

So what was the right thing to do? I find this hard.

Regardless, when I hear the scorn and contempt some people pour on prostitutes, I think of this young, vulnerable woman. I don't want to speak like that.

[Bootstrap]

Looking at that OP, I think it's consistent with the way I want to discuss these things.

Sorry, it was your 2nd post.

Here's my second post in that thread:

viewtopic.php?p=193533#p193533

I think that's consistent with the way I want to discuss these things too.

A request: if I think something would just cause a stupid fight, and would be wrong, please don't keep forcing the issue. A lot of the "fight" in this thread is about trying to force me to go there. How many times have we been around this loop?

[Soloist]

Another example:

When I lived in Berlin, I had to work really late, and when I was driving home at perhaps 4 in the morning I heard a woman screaming. I stopped, and there was a young woman in hysterics, saying she had just been raped. I offered to drive her to the hospital. As we were driving, she told me she was a prostitute.

I was taking her to a Christian hospital associated with the church I was going to, it was right next to the church, I knew most of the nurses. I was actually concerned what they might think of me when I came to the hospital with a prostitute, but I let that one go. As we were driving, the prostitute told me how grateful she was, and offered to reward my kindness if I wanted to meet her some time. Didn't know what to do with that one. I told her I am a Christian and wouldn't do that kind of thing, she said she would really like to get to know me. Didn't know what to do with that either.

At the hospital, she slipped me a piece of paper with her contact information. On the way home, I tossed that paper into a trash can. I didn't want that kind of temptation. Afterward, I wondered if I had done the right thing. Perhaps I could have introduced her to some women in my church? Or met with her together with my wife? But I also didn't want my wife or anyone else to wonder about anything involving me and a very attractive young prostitute.

So what was the right thing to do? I find this hard.

Regardless, when I hear the scorn and contempt some people pour on prostitutes, I think of this young, vulnerable woman. I don't want to speak like that.

I think I would have asked my wife to give her a ride

I haven’t had any conversations with prostitutes and I’ve avoided being in areas they would be. I have no place witnessing or conversing with them. That’s for women to do. I personally have a much worse opinion of those who use them. Many of those women were trafficked.

[GaryK]

Interesting.

I find these scriptures challenging. Precisely because practicing Christlike holiness and love is hard with real people - especially since I am a real person myself. I'm pretty sure that (1) I have not yet mastered what the Bible teaches on this subject and (2) I have a lot to learn about applying it in my own life.

I invited you to share before but you didn’t seem interested in sharing your own experience.

On the one side:

I think that people are distorting Scripture with all kinds of fancy arguments to justify gay marriage. I don't think we can ditch what the Bible teaches about gay sex or about creation as male and female without basically abandoning Scripture as a reliable guide for sexual ethics entirely. Those Scriptures are clear. I suspect the denomination I am in will have a significant split in the coming year over this issue. There are people who are angry at me for clearly expressing what Scripture teaches.

On the other side:

The LGBTQ people in my broader family have experienced real hate and contempt at times. I have seen it, and I cannot call it anything else. So have some LGBTQ people in my denomination. Sometimes from "fine religious" people. So when LGBTQ people say they have experienced these things, I believe them. I listen. I care. Sometimes they acknowledge that, telling me that I'm not a hater like some other people, and they sense that I love them. Sometimes they tell me that I can't really love them unless I accept "who they really are". Sometimes they kind of tell me both. They are confused that I seem to care but don't agree with them.

About a year ago:

When I gave a sermon on the woman caught in adultery, there was a young guest in the church who later confided to me, in confidentiality, that she is lesbian, and she felt safe telling me that. She asked if our church would welcome her. I told her we would welcome her, and that I think the love in our church is real, but we might not agree with her. About a month later, she found another church that agreed with her and left. I grieve about that kind of thing. I wish I knew how to do better.

I would be interested in knowing what the hate you have seen consisted of.

Do you think the LGBTQ people who say they have experienced hate would say that what Paul says in Romans 1 is hateful? Are the LGBTQ people in your broader family loving and accepting of Christians in general?

The reason I ask is because my gay uncle has said some very hurtful things to some of his siblings, including his twin sister, about their opposition to his lifestyle. I'm not convinced we should accept the definition of hate that active proponents of these lifestyles use against Christians who oppose their views. My aunts and uncles are not hateful people.

This is not to say that the biblical definitions of hate have never been used by Christians against them.

[Ken]

Interesting.

I find these scriptures challenging. Precisely because practicing Christlike holiness and love is hard with real people - especially since I am a real person myself. I'm pretty sure that (1) I have not yet mastered what the Bible teaches on this subject and (2) I have a lot to learn about applying it in my own life.

I invited you to share before but you didn’t seem interested in sharing your own experience.

Another example:

When I lived in Berlin, I had to work really late, and when I was driving home at perhaps 4 in the morning I heard a woman screaming. I stopped, and there was a young woman in hysterics, saying she had just been raped. I offered to drive her to the hospital. As we were driving, she told me she was a prostitute.

I was taking her to a Christian hospital associated with the church I was going to, it was right next to the church, I knew most of the nurses. I was actually concerned what they might think of me when I came to the hospital with a prostitute, but I let that one go. As we were driving, the prostitute told me how grateful she was, and offered to reward my kindness if I wanted to meet her some time. Didn't know what to do with that one. I told her I am a Christian and wouldn't do that kind of thing, she said she would really like to get to know me. Didn't know what to do with that either.

At the hospital, she slipped me a piece of paper with her contact information. On the way home, I tossed that paper into a trash can. I didn't want that kind of temptation. Afterward, I wondered if I had done the right thing. Perhaps I could have introduced her to some women in my church? Or met with her together with my wife? But I also didn't want my wife or anyone else to wonder about anything involving me and a very attractive young prostitute.

So what was the right thing to do? I find this hard.

Regardless, when I hear the scorn and contempt some people pour on prostitutes, I think of this young, vulnerable woman. I don't want to speak like that.

There are studies which estimate that upwards of 80% of prostitutes were victims of child sexual abuse when they were young, most often at the hands of family members and "trusted" acquaintances.

This is an issue, like many other issues, where the real solutions lie with addressing the roots of the problem more than focusing on the symptoms.