What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

General Christian Theology
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Ken »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:10 am
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:58 pmNone of this is Marxist or "neomarxist" or whatever label you are using. It goes straight to the heart of what this country is ideally about from the Declaration of Independence to the Constitution to the Sermon on the Mount.
I didn't say it was.

I did describe Herbert Marcuse and CRT as neoMarxist, but Herbert Marcuse would be described as Neomarxist by any University, it's not a "conservative" label.

CRT I'm not so sure, but I'm not certainly not alone in that either.
I've been in education for over 15 years and had never even heard the term CRT before it blew up as the latest conservative obsession. So outside of perhaps some universities it isn't something that anyone talked about, used, or taught.

However, issues related to race and systemic racism are a topic in education. Not in terms of curriculum, but in terms of educational administration. Here are two real-world examples I have encountered.

First, in Texas standardized testing is a very big thing at all grade levels and schools are rated A-F based solely on two metrics: standardized test scores and graduation rates. However the ratings are further broken down by race, ethnicity, and socioeconomic status. So test scores and graduation rates are further subdivided into: Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, and poverty or low socioeconomic status (defined by school lunch status). If a school or school district wants to get an A or "Exemplary" rating they have to hit the top metrics not just for their overall population, but for each subgroup. If the white students have high test scores and graduation rates at a school but the Black or Hispanic students do not then the school will be poorly rated. Everything from real estate values to investment decisions by commercial real estate developers hinge on these school ratings. This system was imposed from top-down by the Republican legislature and Republican-run State Department of Education and most definitely not something local school districts came up with on their own.

I taught at a fairly highly rated school and school district and I can tell you that school administrators were laser-focused on test scores and graduation rates, especially for the more vulnerable subpopulations of Black, Hispanic, and poor kids who tended to do more poorly on both metrics. And so I wound up sitting in a lot of meetings dealing with topics like what are the systemic barriers to Black and Hispanic students improving their test scores and graduation rates. Why are they doing more poorly as a group and what can we do to reverse it? Language, poverty, inadvertent tracking, disciplinary procedures, all kinds of systemic issues were explored. Were these exercises "Marxist" or "Neomarxist" because they delved into the topic of systemic racism? Were they inappropriate in any way? You tell me.

Secondly, during my time teaching in Texas there was also a lot of discussion and examination of disparate disciplinary rates between White and Black students. Black students tended to be suspended at measurably higher rates for the same offenses as white students. They also tended to be arrested at higher rates than white students for the same offenses. Both of these two things have a direct effect on school performance. If you aren't in school you do more poorly. But they are also signs of inequity. If you are trying to fix these problems you have to ask WHY they are happening. And that means exploring whether there are systemic biases within the school and local police departments that work within the schools that result in inequitable treatment of Black and White students. Or if it was simply the individual biases of specific teachers and administrators who treated Black kids more harshly. This was a very real problem that I observed first-hand. And Black parents were most definitely aware of it. Every fall during teacher open house I would have Black professional parents visit my classroom, especially the moms. They would give me their business cards and plead with me to please please contact them first if there are any disciplinary issues with their kid and they they will deal with them. Because they feared having their kid get sucked into a downward disciplinary spiral that affects so many Black kids. In 9 years of teaching in Texas this is not a conversation I ever had once with a white parent. White parents just assumed (mostly correctly) that their kids would be treated fairly when it came to school discipline and it wasn't ever on their radar.

Is it "Marxist" to dive into these topics and try to figure out what is going on? You tell me.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Falco Underhill »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am Is it "Marxist" to dive into these topics and try to figure out what is going on? You tell me.
I didn't say it was.
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Ken »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:14 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am Is it "Marxist" to dive into these topics and try to figure out what is going on? You tell me.
I didn't say it was.
The point is, that in the REAL world, systemic racism is a serious and important topic in education and elsewhere. It is rightly a point of focus for educators and administrators from across the political spectrum. And none of it has to do with some sort of plot to impose Marxist "critical theory" or whatever is being claimed.
1 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Falco Underhill »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:54 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:14 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:14 am Is it "Marxist" to dive into these topics and try to figure out what is going on? You tell me.
I didn't say it was.
The point is, that in the REAL world, systemic racism is a serious and important topic in education and elsewhere. It is rightly a point of focus for educators and administrators from across the political spectrum. And none of it has to do with some sort of plot to impose Marxist "critical theory" or whatever is being claimed.
No, of course not. Why would a Critical Race Theorist want to impose some kind of Marxist "critical theory"? That just doesn't even make sense, right?

That's just silly. :laugh

I still don't trust 'em.
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Ken »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:37 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:54 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:14 pm

I didn't say it was.
The point is, that in the REAL world, systemic racism is a serious and important topic in education and elsewhere. It is rightly a point of focus for educators and administrators from across the political spectrum. And none of it has to do with some sort of plot to impose Marxist "critical theory" or whatever is being claimed.
No, of course not. Why would a Critical Race Theorist want to impose some kind of Marxist "critical theory"? That just doesn't even make sense, right?

That's just silly. :laugh

I still don't trust 'em.
I've never met one, nor have I ever read anything any of them have ever written. So they are irrelevant to my life and not something I bother thinking about or having an opinion on one way or the other. What I do know is that 99% of what conservatives are in a lather about with respect to CRT is not actually CRT.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Falco Underhill »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:42 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:37 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:54 pm

The point is, that in the REAL world, systemic racism is a serious and important topic in education and elsewhere. It is rightly a point of focus for educators and administrators from across the political spectrum. And none of it has to do with some sort of plot to impose Marxist "critical theory" or whatever is being claimed.
No, of course not. Why would a Critical Race Theorist want to impose some kind of Marxist "critical theory"? That just doesn't even make sense, right?

That's just silly. :laugh

I still don't trust 'em.
I've never met one, nor have I ever read anything any of them have ever written. So they are irrelevant to my life and not something I bother thinking about or having an opinion on one way or the other.
You sure seem to have lots of opinions about it for someone who has no opinions about it.
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Ken »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:45 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:42 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:37 pm

No, of course not. Why would a Critical Race Theorist want to impose some kind of Marxist "critical theory"? That just doesn't even make sense, right?

That's just silly. :laugh

I still don't trust 'em.
I've never met one, nor have I ever read anything any of them have ever written. So they are irrelevant to my life and not something I bother thinking about or having an opinion on one way or the other.
You sure seem to have lots of opinions about it for a person who has no opinions about it.
I have a lot of opinions about racism both, individual and institutional. And I have a lot of opinions about outside conservative groups who, for example, show up at our local school board meetings to scream about CRT when (1) they clearly know nothing about what is actually being taught in schools, and (2) they clearly have no coherent concept of what CRT actually is. Mostly it seems just an excuse for them to let their racist free flag fly in public.

But as for this "neomarxist" critical theory stuff you keep going on about by citing 50 year old writings from long dead leftist authors? None of that has any relevance to education today. I doubt, for example, that even one in a thousand educators even know who Herbert Marcuse is, much less can coherently describe his writings.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by temporal1 »

OP, Page 1:
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:51 pm This thread is for continuing the conversation we were having without being sidetracked by the Beth Moore issue.

The topic of this thread is Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church, not Beth Moore.

Rules of this Thread:
1. Do not label anyone or anyone's opinion a conspiracy theory.

Okay, let's see how this goes. 8-)
Falco,
Starting with Page 1 of your topic, how do you think it’s going?
0 x
Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Falco Underhill »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:55 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:45 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:42 pm

I've never met one, nor have I ever read anything any of them have ever written. So they are irrelevant to my life and not something I bother thinking about or having an opinion on one way or the other.
You sure seem to have lots of opinions about it for a person who has no opinions about it.
I have a lot of opinions about racism both, individual and institutional. And I have a lot of opinions about outside conservative groups who, for example, show up at our local school board meetings to scream about CRT when (1) they clearly know nothing about what is actually being taught in schools, and (2) they clearly have no coherent concept of what CRT actually is. Mostly it seems just an excuse for them to let their racist free flag fly in public.

Right, because every opponent of CRT is racist.

But as for this "neomarxist" critical theory stuff you keep going on about by citing 50 year old writings from long dead leftist authors? None of that has any relevance to education today. I doubt, for example, that even one in a thousand educators even know who Herbert Marcuse is, much less can coherently describe his writings.
Right, because every opponent of CRT is a racist and nobody understands it quite like yourself.

Now, if you think this subject is so irrelevant and nobody cares about it then go find someone else to harass. Otherwise, i will permanently ignore your posts.
Last edited by Falco Underhill on Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 x
Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Falco Underhill »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:23 pm OP, Page 1:
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:51 pm This thread is for continuing the conversation we were having without being sidetracked by the Beth Moore issue.

The topic of this thread is Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church, not Beth Moore.

Rules of this Thread:
1. Do not label anyone or anyone's opinion a conspiracy theory.

Okay, let's see how this goes. 8-)
Falco,
Starting with Page 1 of your topic, how do you think it’s going?
Well, no one has outright called me a conspiracy theorist (yet) so just peachy, I guess. :mrgreen:
0 x
Post Reply