Augustinians and War

[Sudsy]

Jesus motto here on earth seemed to be, "Preach the Gospel (through deeds) and if possible, include words!"

I have to join in on the underlined. A nerve was hit. I disagree and the proclamation of the Gospel requires words - Romans 10:14,15

Have you ever been in a position when you were not allowed to speak for some reason, or in a situation when speaking actually made things worse, and the only avenue left for proclaiming the Gospel was to live like Jesus?

Yes, for instance, when I participate in bringing some people their main meal for the day (Meals-On-Wheels), in that program I believe I would be spoken to if I, during those deliveries, stopped to lead someone to Christ. However, nothing prevents me from quickly setting up a time with those folks to go visit them outside that program and to share the Gospel with them. I believe if I am willing and sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who lives within me and is there to guide me, He will prompt me to share the Gospel in words. My problem, I believe, is just that I'm not listening for Holy Spirit direction. I have to admit that I am too lazy and unconcerned about warring for the souls of others. I have very little concern over physical wars in this world, those will continue until Jesus returns. Our wars are in the spiritual realm. Fighting those forces that keep people from turning to God for salvation. That should be my focus.

In my own experience, I have had such promptings to share the Gospel at moments in time and experienced the help of the Holy Spirit bringing scriptures to my remembrance and have observed His work in the hearer as He does His role in bringing light to that person. There also have been some times where I spoke up and my words were more of a rebuke of their living than a sharing of the Gospel. Those times did not go over well and I later realized I was being religious rather than desiring the salvation of their soul.

The biggest challenge I experience in sharing the Gospel, the Good News, is that I get too caught up with my own life and do not 'have an ear to hear' what the Spirit might be telling me. I think if we ignore Him enough, that 'still small voice' telling us He wants us to do something and/or say something that we have not allowed Him to be the guide that Jesus sent for us to have within us and He isn't going to shout in our ear, so to speak. I believe it takes a determined effort on our part to listen for the Holy Spirit. In other words, as we go about our day, are we leaving room for Him to direct us even if it is inconvenient to what we plan to do that day. And are we willing to act on those promptings. Be doers and not hearers only.

The scripture says 'the fear of man brings a snare' and in my experience, the fear of being persecuted and perhaps losing a friend is a trap, a snare, satan uses to keep us from using words explaining what the Good News is. He will throw all kinds of doubts and fears at us about what might happen should we share the Gospel message. Jesus said not to fear those who might even kill the body. In our society we are most likely far, far from that happening to us in North America. Elsewhere in the world, it is a different story.

I think the majority of followers of Jesus around the world find themselves in such a situation most of the time.

I don't know how one could verify that. But it is not the case where we live. We can use words quite freely. We really don't have any valid excuse for keeping the message to ourselves.

When you say 'the only avenue left for proclaiming the Gospel was to live like Jesus', although I doubt that applies very much to us here, none of us can really 'live like Jesus' . We can try to follow His teachings and be guided by the Holy Spirit but I believe many things Jesus did, none of us could or should even try to do. However, Jesus did tell us things like doing our good deeds before men in such a way that they will see God at work in us to glorify Him. I have met unbelievers in Christ who live in Jesus like ways that outshine many Christians in doing good deeds. Many outshine mine. However, there should be something special in our good deeds that point people to God. It is the light within that makes the difference. And likely some don't agree with me here either but that is my current understanding of how our good deeds stand out from those of an atheist.

Sorry, to blab on as I do, but I view this topic to be the most important one we could ever be discussing. The eternal destiny of others and our role in that is so important and quite puzzling how it is often not a primary concern. Same for me, and I can only think it is a snare of fear that satan uses the most to keep people on his side.

One add on - regarding the 'Preach the Gospel ----' quote. Never quoted - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... of-assisi/

[Ken]

The Bible says there will be wars and rumours of wars. This means it is pointless to try to stop "war". Nonetheless, that doesn't mean we should get actively involved in fighting wars, nor should we get actively involved in trying to help choose who we go to war with this election cycle.

The Bible also says similar things about both sin and poverty. That there will always be sin and poverty in the world.

By your logic does that mean we should not get actively involved in opposing those things as well? Because it is all futile?

Via natural means, yes. The only way to deal with sin is through becoming born again and following Jesus. And eradicating poverty is impossible. As Jesus said, "The poor you will always have with you."

So your version of Christianity is the selfish version. That we should all just hunker down and only worry about ourselves and our own families and do nothing to make the world a better place for others in any way? Because a perfect world is impossible?

[HondurasKeiser]

[quote=Ken post_id=148291 time=<a href="tel:1643728882">1643728882</a> user_id=4498]
So your version of Christianity is the selfish version. That we should all just hunker down and only worry about ourselves and our own families and do nothing to make the world a better place for others in any way? Because a perfect world is impossible?[/quote]
I don’t read Josh as saying that - simply that (to paraphrase Don Kraybill) in the Upside-down Kingdom of which we are members we have different methods for doing just that.

[Ernie]

Jesus motto here on earth seemed to be, "Preach the Gospel (through deeds) and if possible, include words!"

Sorry, to blab on as I do, but I view this topic to be the most important one we could ever be discussing. The eternal destiny of others and our role in that is so important and quite puzzling how it is often not a primary concern. Same for me, and I can only think it is a snare of fear that satan uses the most to keep people on his side.

I think you and I agree more than we disagree. I do not agree with the sentiment of the statement commonly attributed to Assisi. (that he likely never said) "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." The sentiment of this statement is that words should be used sparingly or that they are somehow inferior to deeds. I am not saying that.

I believe...
It is always good to preach the Gospel through deeds. (which is the essence of why I can't support war or those who do)
It is not always expedient to preach with words. But if you have the opportunity, do so!

I think the majority of followers of Jesus around the world find themselves in such a situation most of the time.

I don't know how one could verify that. But it is not the case where we live. We can use words quite freely. We really don't have any valid excuse for keeping the message to ourselves.

Many people do not want to hear the Gospel, and continually trying to tell them the Gospel only makes them more resistant to it. But preaching via deeds can continue, even when people don't want to hear the Gospel.

[Sudsy]

Jesus motto here on earth seemed to be, "Preach the Gospel (through deeds) and if possible, include words!"

Sorry, to blab on as I do, but I view this topic to be the most important one we could ever be discussing. The eternal destiny of others and our role in that is so important and quite puzzling how it is often not a primary concern. Same for me, and I can only think it is a snare of fear that satan uses the most to keep people on his side.

I think you and I agree more than we disagree. I do not agree with the sentiment of the statement commonly attributed to Assisi. (that he likely never said) "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." The sentiment of this statement is that words should be used sparingly or that they are somehow inferior to deeds. I am not saying that.

I believe...
It is always good to preach the Gospel through deeds. (which is the essence of why I can't support war or those who do)
It is not always expedient to preach with words. But if you have the opportunity, do so!

I think the majority of followers of Jesus around the world find themselves in such a situation most of the time.

I don't know how one could verify that. But it is not the case where we live. We can use words quite freely. We really don't have any valid excuse for keeping the message to ourselves.

Many people do not want to hear the Gospel, and continually trying to tell them the Gospel only makes them more resistant to it. But preaching via deeds can continue, even when people don't want to hear the Gospel.

Thanks Ernie. I do agree that good deeds should never cease regardless of how people are responding to the Gospel. Jesus said to let the light in us shine through our good deeds in such a way that they will turn to God. I believe good deeds is a means through which the Holy Spirit speaks to an unbeliever as doing good is something pretty hard to argue with by anyone if they are done to glorify God.

The Pharisees acted in ways to bring attention to themselves and this does not draw people to God. We should ask ourselves when we do good deeds if our goal is to draw attention to ourselves or our faith group or are we shining our light in a way that people see it is our way of glorifying the God who lives within us. I believe good deeds are an act of worship.

I agree that some people are not ready to hear the Gospel through words and to them it is foolishness. We are the weak minded who are caught up in religion that has many holes in their reasonings and we are missing out on many pleasures in this life. Some even will hate us Jesus said. We will be their enemy and this shouldn't surprise us. In the NT it says that when we do present the Gospel and there is this resistance to listen to it, that we are OK to 'wipe the dust off our feet' and move on. Perhaps at another time they will have ears to hear through other attempts to reach them. I experienced this especially in door-to-door evangelism presenting the Gospel message as sometimes doors would be slammed in our face but then there were some that were ready to hear. Sometimes seed was planted, sometimes seed already there was watered and other times we experienced the joy of a harvest as people would turn their life to God for salvation.

One of the things that satan often uses today to throw off people coming to Christ is to point fingers at professing Christians who don't appear to have much change in their lives other than thinking they now are on their way to heaven. My father was one who mocked church going buddies of his who went to church but still lived very sinful lives as he did. He thought they were a joke and just wasting their time going to church when Sundays was a time for really enjoying life. Well, through my mom's good deeds and faithful obedience to Jesus, there came a day when his curiosity lead him to 'check things out a bit closer' and he entered mom's Gospel preaching church and gave his life to Christ. This change was so radical that he lost many of his old friends. One even spit on his shoes as he did street preaching. I love to tell the story of my parents radical, born again experience that gave me such a blessed home to grow up in.

One more thing, for now , I believe good deeds, such as serving meals to truckers, can be seeing a need, regardless of what the truckers are up to, they need to be fed and I think this can be used as an opportunity to reflect how God affects us to do good where opportunities present themselves. The question is whether this is what is driving that act. Myself, if, for instance a Gospel tract was given along with each meal, it just might be the means the Holy Spirit uses to save a soul. Even one soul would be worth giving out thousands of tracts. We have means today in giving out reading material that the early church never had. And some Christians use this means often at various places. Even if 99% of those tracts end up in the garbage, even if one soul was reached by scattering the seed, would it not be well worth it ? I'm sure most would agree or I hope they do.

Good deeds can open doors for some to give ear to the Gospel in words. It may not be immediate or completely getting through the darkness that surrounds many but it is what Jesus said, it is shining our light. Questions in my mind - are my good deeds creating opportunities for words to share the Gospel message. If not, what is driving me to do good deeds ? Is it self recognition, sense of duty, need for others to like me, etc or is it a result of being born again and now have a concern that others come to know the Lord and receive eternal life ? Can one be truly born again and not have a deep desire followed by actions to see others saved also ? Or is it just a select number of gifted believers that have this commission ? Is my light, the light of God in me, hiding under a bushel or is it penetrating the darkness ?

[Josh]

The Bible also says similar things about both sin and poverty. That there will always be sin and poverty in the world.

By your logic does that mean we should not get actively involved in opposing those things as well? Because it is all futile?

Via natural means, yes. The only way to deal with sin is through becoming born again and following Jesus. And eradicating poverty is impossible. As Jesus said, "The poor you will always have with you."

So your version of Christianity is the selfish version. That we should all just hunker down and only worry about ourselves and our own families and do nothing to make the world a better place for others in any way? Because a perfect world is impossible?

Ken, you and I don’t come close to agreeing on what a perfect world is. So if I got involved in politics and using force, how would we resolve that conflict?

[Ken]

Ken, you and I don’t come close to agreeing on what a perfect world is. So if I got involved in politics and using force, how would we resolve that conflict?

I'm not suggesting you get involved in politics or force and never have.

I'm simply suggesting that if you wish to be a peacemaker in the biblical sense then you should be aware of actual conflict in the world and find the path that best suits you to help make the world a more peaceful place. And that willfully ignoring all conflict and events that occur outside your small community is not what Jesus had in mind.

German Lutheran paster Martin Niemöller who spent 7 years in a Nazi concentration camp for opposing the Nazis famous said:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

After the war he also said:

"Thus, whenever I chance to meet a Jew known to me before, then, as a Christian, I cannot but tell him: 'Dear Friend, I stand in front of you, but we can not get together, for there is guilt between us. I have sinned and my people has sinned against thy people and against thyself.'"

[Chris]

Somewhere along the line "Christians" decided they could love their enemies with the barrel of a gun.

[Josh]

Ken, you and I don’t come close to agreeing on what a perfect world is. So if I got involved in politics and using force, how would we resolve that conflict?

I'm not suggesting you get involved in politics or force and never have.

I'm simply suggesting that if you wish to be a peacemaker in the biblical sense then you should be aware of actual conflict in the world and find the path that best suits you to help make the world a more peaceful place. And that willfully ignoring all conflict and events that occur outside your small community is not what Jesus had in mind.

German Lutheran paster Martin Niemöller who spent 7 years in a Nazi concentration camp for opposing the Nazis famous said:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

After the war he also said:

"Thus, whenever I chance to meet a Jew known to me before, then, as a Christian, I cannot but tell him: 'Dear Friend, I stand in front of you, but we can not get together, for there is guilt between us. I have sinned and my people has sinned against thy people and against thyself.'"

I’m aware of plenty of conflict, for example, American Democrats (and Republicans) trying to start a war with Russia.

Not sure what exactly you expect me to do about it.

[Ken]

Somewhere along the line "Christians" decided they could love their enemies with the barrel of a gun.

Here's a perfect example of that sort of thought, not from Christians per se, but the elite. This 20-year old op-ed hasn't aged well.



Of course he didn't actually do any "calculations" He was just speaking conventional wisdom out of his ****.

And now this elite New Yorker is suing in the Oregon Supreme Court to be allowed to run for governor in Oregon despite having voted in NYC for the past 20 years including 2020.