For those who care to read related posts on P.8+11, it’s clear, the exception for confession is extremely limited.
Most Christian churches and others do not have a comparable (rite?) thus it wouldn’t apply.
Not every clergy, monk or nun is affected. It’s specific and limited. i will guess, quite unusual, whether victim or abuser.
JayP wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:23 am I do not think there is much question the Church will win this lawsuit. The compelling argument is that ONLY Clergy are named. The idea that a school nurse retains privileged conversation status or “therapist” who may well or even hold a medical degree yet the confessional alone is stripped of historical legal protections is a gross violation of Constitutional law.
Every religious person should object because this law is not about the Catholic Church, child abuse, or the seal of the confessional. It is a bare faced open attack on religious practices and an example that many on the left have no real belief in the Constitution.
It is far more than a slippery slope.
0 x
i’m perfectly comfortable with an older, wiser, more docile Trump.
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 1:26 pm
No one is inviting police into the confessional or church in general. Suspicions of abuse are not reported to the police but to child welfare to investigate. And then only if there is suspicion of illegality are the police involved.
Law enforcement is law enforcement. What you are proposing demands that priests effectively be an extension of law enforcement who will initiate investigations upon hearing something that makes them suspicious, and making them required to do so by law.
Priests, churches, and confessional booths should not be part of law enforcement. They should not be an arm of the state. Government and church should be two separate things.
If the Catholic Church wants to be part of the problem and not part of the solution that is their choice. It is not a good look to come down on the side of protecting abusers rather than protecting children. But this is probably only reason 105 for why the Catholic church is continuing to decline in America.
It is not "protecting abusers" to accept hearing confessions and granting the sacrament of absolution. Priests are not agents of the state.
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 2:24 pm
No other denominations or faiths are protesting or opposing this law in court except for the Orthodox church which is joining the Catholic Bishops.
...
The Mennonite Church (in any of its various denominations) hasn't objected to this law and is already subject to the same reporting requirements in every other state in which it operates in the country. Your church in Oregon has been subject to the same mandatory child abuse reporting requirements for decades. Has that lead to encroaching Nazism or an iron curtain in Oregon? Has it infringed on your ability to worship as you see fit?
We don't have confessional booths nor offer absolution by confessing to a priest. Nor we do have any tradition of having a "confessional seal". Nor do we teach that our members need to confess to a priest to gain forgiveness for sins. However, Catholic and Orthodox doctrine is that they do. That is their practice and they have done it for a very long time.
Instead, we teach that we should confess our sins directly to Jesus, privately.
Interestingly enough, Jesus doesn't go and narc us out to the police or law enforcement, no matter how heinous what we confess is.
Perhaps you should direct your complaints to God himself, and complain that Jesus isn't a "mandatory reporter" who is taking down notes and then turning over material to law enforcement for further investigation.
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 2:24 pm
No other denominations or faiths are protesting or opposing this law in court except for the Orthodox church which is joining the Catholic Bishops.
...
The Mennonite Church (in any of its various denominations) hasn't objected to this law and is already subject to the same reporting requirements in every other state in which it operates in the country. Your church in Oregon has been subject to the same mandatory child abuse reporting requirements for decades. Has that lead to encroaching Nazism or an iron curtain in Oregon? Has it infringed on your ability to worship as you see fit?
We don't have confessional booths nor offer absolution by confessing to a priest. Nor we do have any tradition of having a "confessional seal". Nor do we teach that our members need to confess to a priest to gain forgiveness for sins. However, Catholic and Orthodox doctrine is that they do. That is their practice and they have done it for a very long time.
Instead, we teach that we should confess our sins directly to Jesus, privately.
Interestingly enough, Jesus doesn't go and narc us out to the police or law enforcement, no matter how heinous what we confess is.
Perhaps you should direct your complaints to God himself, and complain that Jesus isn't a "mandatory reporter" who is taking down notes and then turning over material to law enforcement for further investigation.
Bottom line:
Do you think child abuse should be reported? Or covered up?
And since you are bringing Jesus into it, what did Jesus teach: That we are to protect little children? Or protect the institutional prerogatives of churches?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Do you think child abuse should be reported? Or covered up?
What about abuse of adults, like domestic violence? Should that be reported or covered up?
Murder?
What about financial frauds?
What about violating immigration laws?
Should priests have a duty to report all of the above things to the state as well?
And since you are bringing Jesus into it, what did Jesus teach: That we are to protect little children? Or protect the institutional prerogatives of churches?
I don't see anywhere Jesus taught us that we should ally ourselves with the state and become informants.
Do you think child abuse should be reported? Or covered up?
What about abuse of adults, like domestic violence? Should that be reported or covered up?
Murder?
What about financial frauds?
What about violating immigration laws?
Should priests have a duty to report all of the above things to the state as well?
And since you are bringing Jesus into it, what did Jesus teach: That we are to protect little children? Or protect the institutional prerogatives of churches?
I don't see anywhere Jesus taught us that we should ally ourselves with the state and become informants.
The law in question only requires mandatory reporting of child abuse. Not financial fraud, immigration violations, or anything else. So it is a very simple question. Should CHILD ABUSE be reported?
In my Bible, Jesus commands us to protect the little children. And in Romans 13 we are also commanded to submit to governing authorities.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:52 pm
The law in question only requires mandatory reporting of child abuse. Not financial fraud, immigration violations, or anything else. So it is a very simple question. Should CHILD ABUSE be reported?
Is there something about that particular crime that justifies expecting clergy to be agents of the state, but not the other crimes?
In my Bible, Jesus commands us to protect the little children. And in Romans 13 we are also commanded to submit to governing authorities.
I don't consider being an agent of the state the same thing as "protecting little children". I do not have a massive amount of trust in government.
"Submitting to governing authorities" doesn't mean that one can't object via the courts to unconstitutional laws. Do you think it does?
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:52 pm
The law in question only requires mandatory reporting of child abuse. Not financial fraud, immigration violations, or anything else. So it is a very simple question. Should CHILD ABUSE be reported?
Is there something about that particular crime that justifies expecting clergy to be agents of the state, but not the other crimes?
Yes in fact there is. See if you can figure out what it is.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 4:52 pm
The law in question only requires mandatory reporting of child abuse. Not financial fraud, immigration violations, or anything else. So it is a very simple question. Should CHILD ABUSE be reported?
Is there something about that particular crime that justifies expecting clergy to be agents of the state, but not the other crimes?
Yes in fact there is. See if you can figure out what it is.
Please detail what it is. For example, should a priest have to report something involving a person who is abused who is 17 years and 11 months old, but no obligation whatsoever if they are 18 years and 1 month?