Experts Confirm Genesis 19, Biblical City Destroyed by Explosion 1,000 Times Larger Than Atomic Bomb

[Pelerin]

Having a bit of experience with this, the water table isn’t likely to vary much over your property. If you have water, you have water and predicting where the water is is like predicting which part of the swimming pool you’ll find water in: yes, you were right, but… There was a lady who attempted to drill a well on a property that was fairly elevated. It wasn’t promising to begin with and she came up with nothing but porous rock. She goes a dowser who told her she had just missed the water by twenty feet. Yeah, no.

The depth will tend to be fairly consistent across the area as well so if you know the area you can also predict the depth pretty easily without any geological knowledge. If the elevation changes the depth will change relatively but even that’s easy to estimate. That doesn’t necessarily mean your dowser was being dishonest—once you have enough experience with something it’s easy to extrapolate even if you don’t realize what you’re doing.

If you start getting into mountainous areas, you might need a geologist to help you find a perched aquifer but the valleys are usually be a good bet for water like the wells Isaac dug.

[RZehr]

But water witchers can find buried pipes too. At least that is what I’ve heard.
So it’s more than just tell someone where to dig a well when the water table is everywhere.

[Ken]

The excavation of Tall el-Hammam has been going on for many years. And Steven Collins, the self-appointed "lead archaeologist" of the operation is a fraud who gave himself his own PhD through the unaccredited mail-order diploma mill that he himself operates called "Trinity Southwest University". If you google map the place you find that it is just a storefront in an Albuquerque strip mall next to nail salons and takeout restaurants.

This is the google street view of this so-called university. That's it squeezed between a nail salon and a chicken takeout joint: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8NxwgEFVArLWUWw8

According to their web site, Steven Collins is the "Executive Dean" of the operation and gave himself his own PhD

As for his findings, he has been accused of publishing photoshopped doctoring images and making fraudulent claims in his publications. And the Journal that published the finding cited above is now investigating the article for academic fraud: https://retractionwatch.com/2023/02/21/ ... -problems/

The other journal article making these claims was co-authored by Collins and Phillip Silva, another Trinity University archeology PhD product: https://trinitysouthwest.academia.edu/P ... culumVitae

I would suggest the notion that Steven Collins has discovered Sodom and has archaeologically proven the narrative from Genesis 19 should be taken with a pillar of salt.

So where do you think Sodom is located? Did Sodom exist?

What do you think about Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt? Gen 19:26

Honestly I don't know to what extent the story of Sodom in Genesis is legend or myth or based on real events. Since at least the 19th Century, most scholars have placed the authorship of Genesis to around 550 BC and that believe it was based on much earlier oral legends and histories. Much like the Illiad was written by Homer in the 9th Century BC but based on much older oral histories/legends of the Trojan War. I am not enough of a Biblical scholar to dispute them or even weigh in on the subject of the authorship of the Pentateuch.

So I don't believe any particular thing about the fall of Sodom. And I don't think what happened or didn't happen in any of the stories told in Genesis have any real bearing on Christianity in the 21st Century or the teachings of Jesus during New Testament times. They are part of the tapestry of Judaism and Christianity and western Culture to be sure. And so interesting and worthy of study in that respect. Often ancient mythology is indeed based on real historical events. We have discovered what is thought to be the ruins of ancient Troy, for example. And the Saga of the Icelanders and story of Leif Erikson from the 9th and 10th Century of the Viking voyages to America is now supported by archaeology. So it is perfectly plausible we may discover archaeological support for the Story of Sodom and other events from the Pentateuch. I don't dismiss that notion at all.

What I am skeptical of is this particular piece of scholarship. Since it is being done by people who are complete academic frauds with mail-order PhDs from and unaccredited strip-mall diploma mill that they themselves operate. And when subject to peer review their work turns out to contain fraudulent and photoshopped data. Which leaves one with little confidence in their conclusions.

[ken_sylvania]

But water witchers can find buried pipes too. At least that is what I’ve heard.
So it’s more than just tell someone where to dig a well when the water table is everywhere.

I've heard they can find buried pipes.
I've heard they can find metal pipes.
I've heard they can find plastic pipes.
I've heard they can find water that's not in pipes.
I've heard that dowsing doesn't work if someone prays about it first.
I've heard of dowsing being done by very godly men.
I've heard of people losing their dowsing ability after experiencing repentance and the new birth.
I have no firsthand experience....

[JohnHurt]

I am sure we could go speak to practitioners of spiritual art’s and find some that actually had powers. That doesn’t make it from God.

Jacob's Well is 135' deep:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s ... d_location

In the accounts in Genesis that you mentioned, only Abraham and his descendants were able to find water 135' deep. Not the Philistines, or the people living in the land, as they were the ones that would either plug up the wells, or fight over them.

So it was a "gift" that only Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had to be able to know where to dig 135 feet down to find water.

This was a gift from God, and not from the Devil. Otherwise, Abraham is in league with the Devil.

The Devil and his unclean spirits do not give gifts that aid the righteous, such as water, or even seek out water for resting.

Luke 11:(24) When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

The Devil and water do not mix.

Water is associated with Christ, such as Baptism with water. Christ called His Words "Living Water", as when Christ sat next to Jacob's well. (John 4:10) and compared His Doctrines as being more essential than the water of the well that was needed for life.

So to call someone "of the Devil" that uses the gift of water dowsing that God gave him to provide water for others is absurd. Providing drinking water so that people can survive never made anyone go to hell, or be in league with the Devil.

Now, on the contrary, the computer that you are using to see this message, it has the ability to create all sorts of sin, such as pornography, hiring escorts, even drugs and other crimes on the dark web.

I could easily state that the computer "is from the Devil" and anyone that uses a computer to visit "MennoNet" is in league with the Devil and is therefore condemned to hell.

And I think I would have a lot more evidence to back me up about the "Devil being in the computer", than there is evidence for condemning someone for finding water for people to drink.

Just because we don't understand something - that is not "proof" it is "from the Devil". Do you understand how your computer works?

None of us really understand how a multi-thread CPU works - the one you are using - but that doesn't mean it is from the Devil.

I think we need to leave the 1600's behind and realize that the things we cannot understand are not automatically "from the Devil".

The Devil opposes Mankind, and wants to keep us poor, hungry, and thirsty. God gave Abraham a means for finding water - a "gift" that he did not give to everyone else.

And I think it is a trick of the Devil to imply that someone is evil for finding water for others to drink. Perhaps that is who is telling you that dowsing is evil.

Finding water on your property is a good thing. The Devil does not like us to have good things. Perhaps the Devil has you confused about the benefits of water dowsing. Perhaps we all need to be open minded about things we do not understand.

Many blessings to you and your family.

John

[Soloist]

Jacob's Well is 135' deep:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s ... d_location

In the accounts in Genesis that you mentioned, only Abraham and his descendants were able to find water 135' deep. Not the Philistines, or the people living in the land, as they were the ones that would either plug up the wells, or fight over them.

So it was a "gift" that only Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had to be able to know where to dig 135 feet down to find water.

This was a gift from God, and not from the Devil. Otherwise, Abraham is in league with the Devil.

I never said that Abraham used any gifts to find the water. You claimed that. I think they used to dig wells down until they found water.
Did they pray before digging? I don’t doubt it but I really doubt they found some tree branch to use first.

The Devil and his unclean spirits do not give gifts that aid the righteous, such as water, or even seek out water for resting.

Luke 11:(24) When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

The Devil and water do not mix.

I think that is silly.

Act 16:16  And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Act 16:17  The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
Act 16:18  And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

A possessed woman went around proclaiming truth yet it was from the devil.

Mat 17:14  And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
Mat 17:15  Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
Mat 17:16  And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
Mat 17:17  Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Mat 17:18  And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

Possessed boy thrown into water.

The devil is not somehow restricted by water. The devil also is happy to give gifts to anyone if it tricks them into not following God.

Water is associated with Christ, such as Baptism with water. Christ called His Words "Living Water", as when Christ sat next to Jacob's well. (John 4:10) and compared His Doctrines as being more essential than the water of the well that was needed for life.

He also states quite plainly that if you drink from Jacob’s well you will have to drink again
He also referred to Himself as the bread of life yet bread isn’t somehow special either.

So to call someone "of the Devil" that uses the gift of water dowsing that God gave him to provide water for others is absurd. Providing drinking water so that people can survive never made anyone go to hell, or be in league with the Devil.

And if someone uses the same gift to find oil, gold, a missing person or a ring?
You don’t actually know what you say, you believe it though. I believe it’s sinful to use the devils powers and anyone who practices witchcraft will not go to heaven.

Now, on the contrary, the computer that you are using to see this message, it has the ability to create all sorts of sin, such as pornography, hiring escorts, even drugs and other crimes on the dark web.

I could easily state that the computer "is from the Devil" and anyone that uses a computer to visit "MennoNet" is in league with the Devil and is therefore condemned to hell.

Yes you could say that, but you then must include yourself in this condemnation. I am not using dowsing and call it from the devil. I have no argument with you about the evils that have come from the computer and internet yet the device and internet is neutral, it’s the people that make it good or evil.

And I think I would have a lot more evidence to back me up about the "Devil being in the computer", than there is evidence for condemning someone for finding water for people to drink.

Isa 5:20  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

You say this applies to me, I say it applies to you. I ask you again, how can you determine what is witchcraft and what is not?

Just because we don't understand something - that is not "proof" it is "from the Devil". Do you understand how your computer works?

I understand it much better then most people. Either way the ability to explain it isn’t the litmus test of truth.

The Devil opposes Mankind, and wants to keep us poor, hungry, and thirsty. God gave Abraham a means for finding water - a "gift" that he did not give to everyone else.

I disagree. I think he wants us rich, fat and greedy for more.
You make a claim the Bible never makes. Show me where God gives him a gift of dowsing.

[ken_sylvania]

Jacob's Well is 135' deep:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob%27s ... d_location

In the accounts in Genesis that you mentioned, only Abraham and his descendants were able to find water 135' deep. Not the Philistines, or the people living in the land, as they were the ones that would either plug up the wells, or fight over them.

So it was a "gift" that only Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had to be able to know where to dig 135 feet down to find water.

Assuming for a moment that you are correct in asserting that only Abraham and his kin could find water, it appears that the "gift" that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had was simply the gift of common sense. I don't care whether you have dowsing ability or not, the only way you're going to find water 135' deep is if you dig a hole 135' deep. If you are filling up the holes with dirt instead of digging the holes deeper, you aren't going to find water.

Also, I think it's probable that in that era, it was probably considered more "respectable" for a Philistine to be a part of the army and fight over existing wells rather than to be a plain old dirt digger. So it's not surprising they fought for wells rather than digging them.

[RZehr]

What am I missing in this conversation. Is there something in the Biblical record that suggests that Jacob used the occult to know where to dig? Is the argument that God somehow showed Jacob where to dig? Where in the Bible are you looking to come to these conclusions? All I am familiar with, is that the Bible says that Jacob dug it, full stop, with no commentary on how he knew where to dig. I guess I am also slightly familiar with the well itself. I have been there, and drank of it. Jesus was right, I did thirst again.

[Soloist]

What am I missing in this conversation. Is there something in the Biblical record that suggests that Jacob used the occult to know where to dig?

John is arguing that Jacob used dowsing and he is claiming it is a gift from God.

I am arguing that Jacob did not use dowsing and if he did anything unusual it was likely only prayers.

John is arguing that water is of God and a good gift therefore dowsing (to find water at least) is from God.

I am arguing that dowsing is witchcraft and asking him to explain how he determines what is and is not witchcraft.

[RZehr]

John why do you think that Jacob used dowsing?