Speaking in Tongues?

[Valerie]

You simply continue to ignore inconvenient passages that refute your position.

1 Cor 14:21-22. 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Which quotes:

Isiah 28:11. 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Paul is clearly saying here this (tongue speaking, more correctly language speaking) is that (a fulfillment of a prophecy to unbelieving Israel) I do, and cannot understand the eccentric understand that the tongue speaking movement has. To produce some sort of babbling is clearly not a fulfillment of this prophecy.

The tongue speaking movement dates only from the 1900-1910 period. It is very new in the context of Christian Theology.

Did I not hear someone a couple of topics ago pushing Eastern Orthodox as the one true church? Now it is tongues. They are inconsistent with each other. I could give some advice here, but running after the latest new thing will seldom result in peace with God and your church. I cannot fathom how someone will find peace in this manner.

No. As Soloist at least acknowledged above, it is not just speaking foreign language, as he can see, Apostle Paul is speaking of the gift of tongues that one can have that can edify oneself, which is as the Word says, "speaking to God mysteries" and or in a church environment where there are those with the gift of interpretation. And no- this didn't begin in 1900-1910, perhaps it revived again because of people of faith reading God's word, desiring the gifts as Apostle Paul SAID to do, and the Holy Spirit was poured out again- Joel 2 as Sudsy mentioned, first fulfilled in Acts 2. If churches shyed away from the gifts, so be it, but please refrain from trying to teach something that you simply have not the understanding or experience, none of us are infallible so consider YOU are ignoring many passages- I have read and learned these having become Born Again in a Church that does understand and thank the Good Lord I now have found Anabaptists that also understand and believe. Soooo refreshing!!

First of all, i will ask you to acknowledge your inaccurate statement when you suggest that Mennonites do not practice the gifts. I have seen no less than 14 spiritual gifts in full operation in my Mennonite church, as is in most others. To say we do not practice the gifts is a falsehood, and I will ask you to retract it. The ONLY gift we are talking about here is tongues, and that is clearly a matter of definition. The word that is used in the Greek clearly designates a known human language, per at least two of the most commonly used Greek lexicons, Bullinger and Thayer. It was not the practice of the church in general until Azusa street, round about 1910. You have been pushing this “church fathers” line for awhile, tell me which of them endorsed speaking in tongues? None, not that I pay much attention to them anyway.

The prophecy that sums it all up, note use of the word “therefor” which indicates a concluding thought CLEARLY is a reference to the evangelistic potential and purpose of tounges. This follows the OT quote i referenced above.

You do know that both pages and Muslims do the exact same thing? I have heard Sufis enguage in what sounds like the same thing. Finally, I am an Arabic speaker. I have lots of friends that are as well. One of them went into a Pentecostal church, and recited John 1:1 in Arabic, assuming his wife would give the interpretation. What came out of the mouth of a man on the other side of the building was anything but. So much for testing the spirits.

I could drag my grad school notes out. I suspect that even an airtight case would not convince youut are you going to address the inconsistency between Eastern Orthodoxy (Last month) and Pentecostalism (this month).

Our dear friend who is Eastern Orthodox just told me recently, he is using his prayer language again (tongues) and several years ago, at a Bible Study at other Eastern Orthodox friends, Deacon Basil said he had the gift of tongues. As Apostle Paul said "do not despise prophecy, do not forbid speaking in tongues.

I did not say Mennonites don't practice the gifts.
Northing to retract.
From 1 Corinthians 12:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:,"

I do not really care what colleges are teaching about the gift of tongues. Baptists believe the same as Anabaptists. I just only see tongues mocked on Mennonite Discussion Forum.

Believe what you want. Not all understand or care to.
But do not blasphrme the Holy Spirit - you have not heard every person with this gift and you are only revealing a heart of unbelief. I will not continue useless wrangling.
Love is superior, none of which I see by those making fun of the gift of tongues and those who speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but you will stand before God if you falsely accused.

[Sudsy]

I would be careful about making jokes about speaking in an unknown language. I do believe that satan has his counterfeits to operating in the supernatural and this does occur when some give way to their emotions or try in themselves to speak some kind of gibberish.

I believe there is both earthly known tongues that are not known to the speaker but are to listeners, as occured at the Acts on the Day of Pentecost and there are unknown tongues that are not earthly languages and therefore need interpretation. Scripture speaks of these unknown tongues used in prayer as 'my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful' 1 Cor 14:14. My mom prayed often in these type of tongues. These prayers are to build one up spiritually as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:4 (NKJV)“He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.”

There are no doubt stories of the misuse of tongues but the gifts of tongues and interpretation is quite a powerful gift when truly in operation and I have witnessed it many times.

[Valerie]

I would be careful about making jokes about speaking in an unknown language. I do believe that satan has his counterfeits to operating in the supernatural and this does occur when some give way to their emotions or try in themselves to speak some kind of gibberish.

I believe there is both earthly known tongues that are not known to the speaker but are to listeners, as occured at the Acts on the Day of Pentecost and there are unknown tongues that are not earthly languages and therefore need interpretation. Scripture speaks of these unknown tongues used in prayer as 'my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful' 1 Cor 14:14. My mom prayed often in these type of tongues. These prayers are to build one up spiritually as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:4 (NKJV)“He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.”

There are no doubt stories of the misuse of tongues but the gifts of tongues and interpretation is quite a powerful gift when truly in operation and I have witnessed it many times.

Very well said Sudsy. Mocking is not a fruit of the Spirit.
It's difficult to convince those in unbelief about it due to misuse & Satan counterfeit as he hates the things of the Spirit- BUT to deny is to deny the very Word of God. I have been told by former Amish (now Mennonite,) he has the gift.

One might ask is it important if "one" of the reasons Apostle Paul who said he wished "you all" spoke in tongues is to edify yourself? Obviously, he could not have been talking about a "foreign language" in that case. But should one pursue a gift that edifies themself?
It is a "gift". You will not receive if you lack faith-at least I have not heard a testimony where one received it that didn't have faith for it,-doesnt mean the Holy Spirit would not pour it out on someone, I don't know-
It is a gift that you can control as well-

[Josh]

It would be wonderful if we could all speak in foreign languages to people who want to hear the gospel. Doing so is a very special spiritual gift.

Spewing gibberish is not a spiritual gift. It is, however, a quite carnal ability I do have, and enough to convince Pentecostal people I am “one of them”.

It is not mockery to call spewing gibberish, spewing gibberish. It is simply accurately describing what it is. Claiming it is a sign of being “baptised in the Spirit”, on the other hand, is false doctrine and false teaching, and goes against the clear teachings of scripture. I hope the false teachers from Azusa Street repented before they “incur a stricter judgment”.

[Valerie]

It would be wonderful if we could all speak in foreign languages to people who want to hear the gospel. Doing so is a very special spiritual gift.

Spewing gibberish is not a spiritual gift. It is, however, a quite carnal ability I do have, and enough to convince Pentecostal people I am “one of them”.

It is not mockery to call spewing gibberish, spewing gibberish. It is simply accurately describing what it is. Claiming it is a sign of being “baptised in the Spirit”, on the other hand, is false doctrine and false teaching, and goes against the clear teachings of scripture. I hope the false teachers from Azusa Street repented before they “incur a stricter judgment”.

Please don't speak against people that have the true gift.
You can be so childish, mean, and sarcastic

[Sudsy]

It would be wonderful if we could all speak in foreign languages to people who want to hear the gospel. Doing so is a very special spiritual gift.

Spewing gibberish is not a spiritual gift. It is, however, a quite carnal ability I do have, and enough to convince Pentecostal people I am “one of them”.

It is not mockery to call spewing gibberish, spewing gibberish. It is simply accurately describing what it is. Claiming it is a sign of being “baptised in the Spirit”, on the other hand, is false doctrine and false teaching, and goes against the clear teachings of scripture. I hope the false teachers from Azusa Street repented before they “incur a stricter judgment”.

Josh, I agree spewing gibberish is not a spiritual gift. If that is what you can do, then my belief is that what you do is not a spiritual gift or Holy Spirit sourced experience. Sure people can fake speaking in an unknown tongue by speaking gibberish. I have heard what to me is that kind of 'tongues speaking'.

When a believer speaks in an unknown tongue as the Spirit gives them utterance (not as they attempt to speak in an unknown tongue) they know it is a supernatural experience like the one described in Acts 10:44-46. This was the first evidence to these folk that they had been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. I have observed and experienced what many who first receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour experience as an evidence that the Holy Spirit was now not only with them but in them. It has nothing to do with one trying in themselves to speak some kind of gibberish.

But everyone can believe as they chose and it seems to me that many are afraid of the supernatural and in their lives and churches they don't want to deal with what they can't fully control themselves.

[Judas Maccabeus]

It would be wonderful if we could all speak in foreign languages to people who want to hear the gospel. Doing so is a very special spiritual gift.

Spewing gibberish is not a spiritual gift. It is, however, a quite carnal ability I do have, and enough to convince Pentecostal people I am “one of them”.

It is not mockery to call spewing gibberish, spewing gibberish. It is simply accurately describing what it is. Claiming it is a sign of being “baptised in the Spirit”, on the other hand, is false doctrine and false teaching, and goes against the clear teachings of scripture. I hope the false teachers from Azusa Street repented before they “incur a stricter judgment”.

Please don't speak against people that have the true gift.
You can be so childish, mean, and sarcastic

Have you actually read what went on during the Azusa street revival?

If some of that was the true gift, I would be quite surprised. They dispatched some of their tongues speaking members as missionaries, to Bengal and Hong Kong. None could understand them. BTW, that is one of the things that moved the early C&MA away from the tongue speaking movement, that this “gift” was not fit for purpose. The possessors of this gift could not use it.

If they could have evangelized with this “gift” I would be first in line to endorse it. I found language study incredibly difficult and frustrating. But, to my knowledge, none have been blessed with that as a supernatural ability. Some learn fast some struggle. The inability of people claiming this gift to use it was pivotal, in the analysis of many to the view of tongues in the missionary movement. As it was, the C&MA and the Assembly of God went their own direction.

Now let’s talk about your attitude towards Mennonites…….

[ken_sylvania]

When a believer speaks in an unknown tongue as the Spirit gives them utterance (not as they attempt to speak in an unknown tongue) they know it is a supernatural experience like the one described in Acts 10:44-46. This was the first evidence to these folk that they had been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. I have observed and experienced what many who first receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour experience as an evidence that the Holy Spirit was now not only with them but in them. It has nothing to do with one trying in themselves to speak some kind of gibberish.

I am not aware of any Anabaptist who would have any objection to believers speaking in tongues as was described in Acts 10:44-46. It is specifically stated that the believers here spoke in other languages and praising God, and implies that it was so nearly like the experience recorded in Acts 2:1-12 that the Jewish believers recognized it as the same thing. And of course, as we know, the "speaking in tongues" recorded there was actual, real, understandable languages. And the Apostle Peter informs us that this was the fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel.

[Josh]

It would be wonderful if we could all speak in foreign languages to people who want to hear the gospel. Doing so is a very special spiritual gift.

Spewing gibberish is not a spiritual gift. It is, however, a quite carnal ability I do have, and enough to convince Pentecostal people I am “one of them”.

It is not mockery to call spewing gibberish, spewing gibberish. It is simply accurately describing what it is. Claiming it is a sign of being “baptised in the Spirit”, on the other hand, is false doctrine and false teaching, and goes against the clear teachings of scripture. I hope the false teachers from Azusa Street repented before they “incur a stricter judgment”.

Please don't speak against people that have the true gift.
You can be so childish, mean, and sarcastic

It is not childish to reject false doctrine, it is not mean, and I’m not being sarcastic. I am completely dead serious.

The Pentecostal doctrines of speaking gibberish and claiming it is “tongues” is a very divisive heresy that started at Azusa Street, and started with the heresy and false doctrine that the evidence of being baptised in the Spirit is “speaking in tongues”. This is not taught in the New Testament. The NT teaches to simply believe, be baptised, and you WILL receive the Holy Ghost.

[Judas Maccabeus]

No. As Soloist at least acknowledged above, it is not just speaking foreign language, as he can see, Apostle Paul is speaking of the gift of tongues that one can have that can edify oneself, which is as the Word says, "speaking to God mysteries" and or in a church environment where there are those with the gift of interpretation. And no- this didn't begin in 1900-1910, perhaps it revived again because of people of faith reading God's word, desiring the gifts as Apostle Paul SAID to do, and the Holy Spirit was poured out again- Joel 2 as Sudsy mentioned, first fulfilled in Acts 2. If churches shyed away from the gifts, so be it, but please refrain from trying to teach something that you simply have not the understanding or experience, none of us are infallible so consider YOU are ignoring many passages- I have read and learned these having become Born Again in a Church that does understand and thank the Good Lord I now have found Anabaptists that also understand and believe. Soooo refreshing!!

First of all, i will ask you to acknowledge your inaccurate statement when you suggest that Mennonites do not practice the gifts. I have seen no less than 14 spiritual gifts in full operation in my Mennonite church, as is in most others. To say we do not practice the gifts is a falsehood, and I will ask you to retract it. The ONLY gift we are talking about here is tongues, and that is clearly a matter of definition. The word that is used in the Greek clearly designates a known human language, per at least two of the most commonly used Greek lexicons, Bullinger and Thayer. It was not the practice of the church in general until Azusa street, round about 1910. You have been pushing this “church fathers” line for awhile, tell me which of them endorsed speaking in tongues? None, not that I pay much attention to them anyway.

The prophecy that sums it all up, note use of the word “therefor” which indicates a concluding thought CLEARLY is a reference to the evangelistic potential and purpose of tounges. This follows the OT quote i referenced above.

You do know that both pages and Muslims do the exact same thing? I have heard Sufis enguage in what sounds like the same thing. Finally, I am an Arabic speaker. I have lots of friends that are as well. One of them went into a Pentecostal church, and recited John 1:1 in Arabic, assuming his wife would give the interpretation. What came out of the mouth of a man on the other side of the building was anything but. So much for testing the spirits.

I could drag my grad school notes out. I suspect that even an airtight case would not convince youut are you going to address the inconsistency between Eastern Orthodoxy (Last month) and Pentecostalism (this month).

Our dear friend who is Eastern Orthodox just told me recently, he is using his prayer language again (tongues) and several years ago, at a Bible Study at other Eastern Orthodox friends, Deacon Basil said he had the gift of tongues. As Apostle Paul said "do not despise prophecy, do not forbid speaking in tongues.

I did not say Mennonites don't practice the gifts.
Northing to retract.
From 1 Corinthians 12:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:,"

I do not really care what colleges are teaching about the gift of tongues. Baptists believe the same as Anabaptists. I just only see tongues mocked on Mennonite Discussion Forum.

Believe what you want. Not all understand or care to.
But do not blasphrme the Holy Spirit - you have not heard every person with this gift and you are only revealing a heart of unbelief. I will not continue useless wrangling.
Love is superior, none of which I see by those making fun of the gift of tongues and those who speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but you will stand before God if you falsely accused.

What you are describing is not the Biblical gift of tongues, it is something else.