Liberation Theology

[Neto]

Even small river towns (accessible only by river, no roads in or out) have that dominate feature of the outsized Catholic church on the town square. (I say outsized because it is the largest and fanciest building in town, often the only building that is more than a single level in height.)

However, as I said, the only version of Liberation Theology we encountered there was from representatives of CIMI, a Catholic mission to indigenous peoples. (I say "a", because the Catholic church operates other mission efforts among the Indian tribal peoples, but I have no idea how that is administered or organized. From what little I DO know about it, I would guess that those efforts came about through the personal interests of a particular priest. In past centuries, yes, the Catholic church DID specifically send workers to Indian tribes, so maybe it is still the same.(CIMI is a distinctive organization because of it's specific objectives, which are Marxist in nature. It may be "Catholic" in name only, or only "tolerated" by the official church, but its members consistently identified themselves as representatives of the Catholic church. But it relates to the government as an NGO, just as we in SIL did. However, unlike SIL or these other Catholic missionary efforts among tribal peoples, the CIMI people rarely spend long periods of time in any one tribe or village.) Another huge difference between Brazil and many of the other countries of S. America is that Indians represent a very small percentage of the overall population. (But there is another element at play as well, that anyone who has "escaped" the native areas will not admit to being Indian. There are no appreciable perks to being Indian in Brazil.)

[barnhart]

It may have avoided the Marxist tag altogether except for the cold war. You had to be either for God and the right or for communism.
I think there is a similar theology in the historic black church and they were/are called Marxist as well.

[Ken]

Even small river towns (accessible only by river, no roads in or out) have that dominate feature of the outsized Catholic church on the town square. (I say outsized because it is the largest and fanciest building in town, often the only building that is more than a single level in height.)

However, as I said, the only version of Liberation Theology we encountered there was from representatives of CIMI, a Catholic mission to indigenous peoples. (I say "a", because the Catholic church operates other mission efforts among the Indian tribal peoples, but I have no idea how that is administered or organized. From what little I DO know about it, I would guess that those efforts came about through the personal interests of a particular priest. In past centuries, yes, the Catholic church DID specifically send workers to Indian tribes, so maybe it is still the same.(CIMI is a distinctive organization because of it's specific objectives, which are Marxist in nature. It may be "Catholic" in name only, or only "tolerated" by the official church, but its members consistently identified themselves as representatives of the Catholic church. But it relates to the government as an NGO, just as we in SIL did. However, unlike SIL or these other Catholic missionary efforts among tribal peoples, the CIMI people rarely spend long periods of time in any one tribe or village.) Another huge difference between Brazil and many of the other countries of S. America is that Indians represent a very small percentage of the overall population. (But there is another element at play as well, that anyone who has "escaped" the native areas will not admit to being Indian. There are no appreciable perks to being Indian in Brazil.)

Interesting. I know nothing of that part of Brazil. When my parents retired they did mission/development work for MCC in northern Brazil in the Recife area for about 4 years. I visited a couple of times and found the area interesting but not at all indigenous. Mostly a mix of Black and Portuguese. The level of development and architecture was pretty similar to Central America but more sprawling and disorganized as opposed to small discrete towns and villages.

Was CIMI a religious order run by priests? Or was it a lay organization? The Catholic church is so enormous and diverse you can find a little of everything. In Guatemala, for example, there was Catholic Relief Services which was mostly Americans doing the exact same thing as the Peace Corps for the most part. And a comparable Catholic organization from Spain doing essentially the same thing. In addition to a whole smorgasbord of different local and international orders of every ideology doing all manner of different things. Liberation theology to the extent that it was promoted was mostly some younger progressive priests who found themselves deep into social justice work in rural Guatemala and looked to theology to justify it. A lot of them were subsequently killed for even the suspicion of being involved in social justice.

It just goes to show that you can find justification for nearly any ideology within the Bible. People simultaneously found justification for slavery and for emancipation. People simultaneously found justification for segregation and integration. People simultaneously found justification for wealth redistribution and for maintaining the status quo. People simultaneously found justification for socialism and anti-communism. Etc. etc. etc.

[Neto]

Even small river towns (accessible only by river, no roads in or out) have that dominate feature of the outsized Catholic church on the town square. (I say outsized because it is the largest and fanciest building in town, often the only building that is more than a single level in height.)

However, as I said, the only version of Liberation Theology we encountered there was from representatives of CIMI, a Catholic mission to indigenous peoples. (I say "a", because the Catholic church operates other mission efforts among the Indian tribal peoples, but I have no idea how that is administered or organized. From what little I DO know about it, I would guess that those efforts came about through the personal interests of a particular priest. In past centuries, yes, the Catholic church DID specifically send workers to Indian tribes, so maybe it is still the same.(CIMI is a distinctive organization because of it's specific objectives, which are Marxist in nature. It may be "Catholic" in name only, or only "tolerated" by the official church, but its members consistently identified themselves as representatives of the Catholic church. But it relates to the government as an NGO, just as we in SIL did. However, unlike SIL or these other Catholic missionary efforts among tribal peoples, the CIMI people rarely spend long periods of time in any one tribe or village.) Another huge difference between Brazil and many of the other countries of S. America is that Indians represent a very small percentage of the overall population. (But there is another element at play as well, that anyone who has "escaped" the native areas will not admit to being Indian. There are no appreciable perks to being Indian in Brazil.)

Interesting. I know nothing of that part of Brazil. When my parents retired they did mission/development work for MCC in northern Brazil in the Recife area for about 4 years. I visited a couple of times and found the area interesting but not at all indigenous. Mostly a mix of Black and Portuguese. The level of development and architecture was pretty similar to Central America but more sprawling and disorganized as opposed to small discrete towns and villages.

Was CIMI a religious order run by priests? Or was it a lay organization? The Catholic church is so enormous and diverse you can find a little of everything. In Guatemala, for example, there was Catholic Relief Services which was mostly Americans doing the exact same thing as the Peace Corps for the most part. And a comparable Catholic organization from Spain doing essentially the same thing. In addition to a whole smorgasbord of different local and international orders of every ideology doing all manner of different things. Liberation theology to the extent that it was promoted was mostly some younger progressive priests who found themselves deep into social justice work in rural Guatemala and looked to theology to justify it. A lot of them were subsequently killed for even the suspicion of being involved in social justice.

It just goes to show that you can find justification for nearly any ideology within the Bible. People simultaneously found justification for slavery and for emancipation. People simultaneously found justification for segregation and integration. People simultaneously found justification for wealth redistribution and for maintaining the status quo. People simultaneously found justification for socialism and anti-communism. Etc. etc. etc.

I sent a PM to you with the web address for CIMI.

We did language school up north of Recife, in Fortelaza. We thought at first that we would need to go to Recife for some legal matters (to register the birth of our daughter, possibly? I don't recall now). We knew that there was an MCC office there. Forteleza was originally founded by the Dutch, then taken over by the Portuguese, and there were a lot of possibly nearly full-blood Portuguese living there in the city. The culture there was very different than in Rondonia, where our mission center was located. It was a very old city, where as Porto Velho (capitol of Rondonia) was a very new city in comparison.

The German priest we knew was older than I, and has passed away some years ago already. I met him first when he came to the Banawa village, then later here & there. He was always friendly, even though he was against our work as a whole. But there were areas of concern where we were "on the same side", and so he was a "friendly enemy". The only other official I met personally was a CIMI member who was head of the Frente de Contato in our area - he was not especially friendly, and I don't think he really wanted to meet me, but I walked over to the chief's house while he was in the village briefly to meet him. He didn't say much, and left soon, so I don't know if he was a priest or not. (It was strongly believed that he had murdered at least one Brazilian man who had entered a restricted area. One of the Banawa men with whom I worked a great deal in translation traveled with them, or another similar crew on a couple of occasions. He, the Banawa man, I mean, was in demand for such operations because he was one of the men who could communicated much better in Portuguese, and is very perceptive in translation.)

CIMI worked closely with the Boas brothers, who were anthropologists who had managed to gain approval for the foundation of the Parque Xingu, an "Indian Reserve" to which tribes were moved when "progress" (roads, oil & mining exploration, etc) brought outsiders into their traditional lands. It became basically an "indigenous museum", where anthropologists could go to observe the people. Back when we first started our work, it was very rare of Indians to be allowed to leave the park, and almost no missionaries were allowed in. Still, the only way to gain entry is by a special request from the respective tribal leaders.

[joshuabgood]

It may have avoided the Marxist tag altogether except for the cold war. You had to be either for God and the right or for communism.
I think there is a similar theology in the historic black church and they were/are called Marxist as well.

Right.

[Ken]

It may have avoided the Marxist tag altogether except for the cold war. You had to be either for God and the right or for communism.
I think there is a similar theology in the historic black church and they were/are called Marxist as well.

Right.

Slave Bibles had the Exodus story expunged. As well as any other story or verse that might question slavery. Can't have people getting ideas, especially about "liberation"

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180970989/

[temporal1]

I cannot get on to wikipedia - some sort of security deal.
Anyway, admittedly I have not followed recent developments in LT, or read anything written in the last 25 years or so, and then only the original proponents in Latin America.

Also, most of what I said above is from personal experience in how the ideas of LT were applied in Brazil, and also from others who encountered it much more than we did, in their work in other parts of South America, especially in Peru, relating to the Shining Path, as I recall.

So it could well be that some have taken some of the ideas and used them in profitable ways,
but I would still maintain that the intents of the original movement were tied up in Marxism and especially the ideas of class struggle. (I don't think I am contradicting what I said previously, that it at first seemed like a good thing based on the actual writing, because it was the original proponents who put it into practice, and it was then that their real ideas became clear.

But I have also not followed those authors, so it is possible that they themselves refocused the movement. I do not know.

But regardless, the original ideas were being used in various parts of South America during our time there in Brazil,
so I will at least insist on saying that caution should be observed.
That is something we should always do, regardless of the origin of the ideas being considered.)

i sure think so.
temptations are dependably presented as innocuous, if not attractive, they become insidious.

for myself, since grasping the hard turn the West has taken in EXPORTING RADICAL SECULARISM, i have grown an appreciation for the prior work of missionaries, including Catholicism. who does not know of failures+abuses, errors, in Christian missions??!!
extremely well documented, normalized in gov ed, etc.

in my real life, i’ve met folks from S.A., China, Haiti, and elsewhere, who credit Catholic missions in their countries for their good education, including Bible literacy. they make great U.S. citizens. for every reason. i advise my adult children to be alert to the probability that migrants they meet may very well know the Bible and take their Christian faith more seriously and respectfully than U.S.-born+raised Christians+Catholics.

being aware of this, i admit to being mortified to witness Christian mission efforts replaced by western-brand secularism.
“jumping from the frying pan into the fire.” it’s chilling.

- - - - - - -

It’s well to recognize the roots of LT as Catholic, and South American.

i agree with your caution for Christians to keep eyes wide open, i believe Voddie B. would fully agree.
VB did not elaborate, he made a reference that caught my interest. VB cautions about what LT has become.
i expect he’s knowledgeable about its origins.

it’s to be expected, those who are ensnared will step up to defend.

[temporal1]

LT at Goshen College
“Six of my highlights from #MennoCon19”
https://www.goshen.edu/president-blog/2 ... ennocon19/

[HondurasKeiser]

It may have avoided the Marxist tag altogether except for the cold war. You had to be either for God and the right or for communism.
I think there is a similar theology in the historic black church and they were/are called Marxist as well.

Right.

No, it's actually a theology that employs a Marxist analysis (read: presuppositions antithetical to the Gospel) to arrive at conclusions that put it firmly outside the way of Christ. As easy as it is to take a swipe at "The Right" - calling Liberation Theology for what it is and warning people off of it, is good and necessary, even when done by a group of people that hold political positions you don't care for.

[joshuabgood]

It may have avoided the Marxist tag altogether except for the cold war. You had to be either for God and the right or for communism.
I think there is a similar theology in the historic black church and they were/are called Marxist as well.

Right.

No, it's actually a theology that employs a Marxist analysis (read: presuppositions antithetical to the Gospel) to arrive at conclusions that put it firmly outside the way of Christ. As easy as it is to take a swipe at "The Right" - calling Liberation Theology for what it is and warning people off of it, is good and necessary, even when done by a group of people that hold political positions you don't care for.

Expound...what are the issues as you see them?