On Modesty

[JimFoxvog]

Therefore, sisters are instructed to wear modest long dresses (Kosmios Katastole). This "Kosmios Katastole" not only specifies that the article of clothing should be a dress, but also specifies that the dress should be of a suitably long length.

I think you may be taking this derivation (if correct) overly literally. It's not the usual opinion of the experts I've found. For example:

Vocabulary of the Greek NT
καταστολή is confined in Bibl. Greek to Isaiah 61:8, 1 Timothy 2:9. In both these passages it is usually understood of ";clothing";; but in view of the word’s being used also with an inner reference, as in Priene 109.186 (c. B.C. 120) τῆι δὲ καταστολῇ καὶ τῆι εὐσχημ [οσύνῃ, it is probable that it should be understood in the wider sense of ";demeanour,"; ";deportment"; (like κατάστημα q.v.) in 1 Tim l.c. : see Dibelius’ note HZNT ad l., and cf. Aristeas 284 μετ᾽ εὐσχημοσύνης καὶ καταστολῆς, ";with decency and restraint,"; and b. 285 σὺ δὲ πᾶσαν ἠσκηκὼς καταστολήν, ";but thou hast practised all restraint."; For κ. = ";overthrow,"; ";subjugation,"; see Chrest. I. 12.15 (B.C.88) Ἰέρακα δὲ προκεχειρίσθαι μετὰ δυνάμεων μυρίων ἐπὶ καταστολὴν τῆς Θηβαίδος. https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/eng/greek/2689.html

[mennonitemom1]

The English word "modest" appears only once in the King James Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 2:9-10 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

The Greek word for apparel in this passage is Katastole, meaning a long dress. Kata meaning down - a garment flowing down; and Stole - a long garment, covering or wrapping.

The Greek word for modest is Kosmios, meaning orderly, well-arranged, decent, modest, harmonious arrangement, or adornment. Modesty is also Biblically applied to one's demeanor or behavior. This same Greek word is translated good behavior in 1 Timothy 3:2 in the qualifications of bishops.

Therefore, sisters are instructed to wear modest long dresses (Kosmios Katastole). This "Kosmios Katastole" not only specifies that the article of clothing should be a dress, but also specifies that the dress should be of a suitably long length.

For 1900 years, that is how pious Christians universally understood female modesty--clothing that both covered the body and concealed its form. In the 20th century there was a mass departure from these traditional standards, as from faith in general, just as it was foretold that a great falling away, or apostasy, would occur in the last days.

Modest clothing was the wineskin that preserved the virtue of modesty from perishing. Yes, it must begin in the heart, but it is impossible to remain confined there. The outward must correspond to the inward, and the inward to the outward.
[Adapted].

yep, this is good.

[MaxPC]

Therefore, sisters are instructed to wear modest long dresses (Kosmios Katastole). This "Kosmios Katastole" not only specifies that the article of clothing should be a dress, but also specifies that the dress should be of a suitably long length.

I think you may be taking this derivation (if correct) overly literally. It's not the usual opinion of the experts I've found. For example:

Vocabulary of the Greek NT
καταστολή is confined in Bibl. Greek to Isaiah 61:8, 1 Timothy 2:9. In both these passages it is usually understood of ";clothing";; but in view of the word’s being used also with an inner reference, as in Priene 109.186 (c. B.C. 120) τῆι δὲ καταστολῇ καὶ τῆι εὐσχημ [οσύνῃ, it is probable that it should be understood in the wider sense of ";demeanour,"; ";deportment"; (like κατάστημα q.v.) in 1 Tim l.c. : see Dibelius’ note HZNT ad l., and cf. Aristeas 284 μετ᾽ εὐσχημοσύνης καὶ καταστολῆς, ";with decency and restraint,"; and b. 285 σὺ δὲ πᾶσαν ἠσκηκὼς καταστολήν, ";but thou hast practised all restraint."; For κ. = ";overthrow,"; ";subjugation,"; see Chrest. I. 12.15 (B.C.88) Ἰέρακα δὲ προκεχειρίσθαι μετὰ δυνάμεων μυρίων ἐπὶ καταστολὴν τῆς Θηβαίδος. https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/eng/greek/2689.html

Jim, not all "experts", even the legitimate ones agree. Native Greek speakers agree with the definition quoted by Valerie.

Re the current state of "fashion". I find it interesting that people are more likely to make positive comments on my wife's attire (long modest dress) lately; several years ago there were the usual snide remarks by those enamored of the latest trends. Lately the same people are less hostile, more complimentary. I wonder what changes have taken place inside their heads/heart?

[Sudsy]

The English word "modest" appears only once in the King James Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 2:9-10 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

The Greek word for apparel in this passage is Katastole, meaning a long dress. Kata meaning down - a garment flowing down; and Stole - a long garment, covering or wrapping.

The Greek word for modest is Kosmios, meaning orderly, well-arranged, decent, modest, harmonious arrangement, or adornment. Modesty is also Biblically applied to one's demeanor or behavior. This same Greek word is translated good behavior in 1 Timothy 3:2 in the qualifications of bishops.

Therefore, sisters are instructed to wear modest long dresses (Kosmios Katastole). This "Kosmios Katastole" not only specifies that the article of clothing should be a dress, but also specifies that the dress should be of a suitably long length.

For 1900 years, that is how pious Christians universally understood female modesty--clothing that both covered the body and concealed its form. In the 20th century there was a mass departure from these traditional standards, as from faith in general, just as it was foretold that a great falling away, or apostasy, would occur in the last days.

Modest clothing was the wineskin that preserved the virtue of modesty from perishing. Yes, it must begin in the heart, but it is impossible to remain confined there. The outward must correspond to the inward, and the inward to the outward.
[Adapted].

Good topic, Valerie. I agree with that which you have written thus far. Modesty like any virtue being cultivated, must come from the inward man and if genuine, will be expressed in outward demeanor, dress and possessions.

To me, modesty goes way beyond how we dress.

Modesty is a about not being too proud or confident about yourself, your abilities and possessions. For Christians modesty should not only include our way of dress, but in our speech, our lifestyle, our homes, our vehicles, etc. A modesty oxymoron is when I see a plainly dressed woman in a cape dress and covering exit a Cadillac Escapade in the church parking lot. Or the plain couple who live in a mansion, decorated to the nines, with a swimming pool in the backyard. Modesty is NOT giving our favorite ministers, missionaries, singing groups near celebrity status. And we observe those people enjoying the status, glory and attention given them for their work, to the point they think they are entitled to it. Modesty is NOT flaunting your knowledge of the Bible, or any other topic.

I have seen a person rightly giving instruction in Bible teachings and when a topic hit too close to the heart, a person would accuse the instructor of flaunting his knowledge. Human nature being what it is, accusations can be a defense mechanism and usually comes from those who feel guilty.

As for expensive homes and cars, I have not seen any Plainly dressed person owning these things. On the contrary, I see modest homes and older vehicles.

Thanks Max, I borrowed this from an Orthodox Priest.

Reads to me that this priest might have got most of this from here - http://www.christadelphiansisters.org/MODESTY.HTM

So how long is long ? Some would say a 'long dress' should cover the ankles, while others would define women's dress like this -

No slacks "because they immodestly reveal the feminine contours of upper leg, thigh, and hip"
No makeup
No jewelry except wedding ring and wristwatch
No low necklines
No sleeveless dresses or shirts
No very tight or very thin clothes
No dress hemlines at or above the knee
No sleeves above the elbow
Uncut hair

Above taken from here - https://www.learnreligions.com/guidelin ... hes-700118

In my classical Pentecostal background 'long' would be like the UPC above here puts it - 'No dress hemlines at or above the knee'. Some might go further in specifying the height of heels on shoes.

So, even 'long dress' is practised in different ways.


My own view is that if we are sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leadings, He will guide us in our outward apparel. Jesus was quite opposed to a Pharisee type of dressing to appear holy when the heart was not being holy. He was most concerned in our ways of treating others.

I think in this 1 Timothy text, Paul gives us some examples of outward shows of attracting attention to ourselves, both men in verse 8 and verses 9 and 10 for women. When Paul says 'in the same manner' following what Paul said about men in verse 8, I think he was continuing with what needs to be considered first being the inner person.

Outward appearance should be a reflection of inward holiness. Paul first tells the men that having anger and disputes among ourselves is not the way to approach God for things at the same time. Putting on religious acts that are seen by men (i.e. praying with lifted hands) is not what God is looking for. Rather it is the right way we address God and treat one another. Some of the Pharisee stories Jesus gave pointed this out.

Likewise for women. It is not drawing attention to themselves through outward adornments but rather godly women should best be known for their good deeds. Jesus said to shine our lights it will be through our good deeds that will cause others to regard God.

If we are Spirit lead in our life style, I believe we will not detract from being the light that draws others to Christ. Pharisee type religion can easily get in the way of others coming to the Lord.

This is how I understand this text at this point in my understandings and YMMV.

[MaxPC]

I borrowed this from an Orthodox Priest.

Reads to me that this priest might have got most of this from here - http://www.christadelphiansisters.org/MODESTY.HTM

Or perhaps the Christadelphians borrowed it from the Greek Orthodox priests The Greek Orthodox have been around (and speak Greek fluently) much longer than the Christadelphians.

A few more random thoughts; as always YMMV.
The world is ruled by "visuals" in so many ways. How we dress can express volumes to strangers and community alike. E.g. The neatly dressed man has a better chance at getting the job than the sloppily undressed and unshaven. "Uniforms" or uniformly dressing is also an expression of membership in a community or fellowship. I still see individualised details in the clothing but overall, the message to the world that is conveyed is "I belong to a community that I care about and who cares about me. We dress this way because it is also an expression of my values which in turn form my behaviors and thinking."

Looking at the other extreme of the outward clothing message of a person, the opposite of modesty is bodily exposure. Nudity in its various forms of undress is widely viewed as a sexual message in most cultures. The goal is not to convey a message focused on God's Good News. The goal is to find a sexual partner; to please one's own carnal desires. Upon close examination of the religious traditions of modern cultures, regardless of that religion, covering up the body is considered Godly and exposure of the body is considered salacious, even promiscuous.

[Valerie]

Whenever this topic comes up it reveals what's going on in our hearts and minds doesn't it?

It really took the anabaptist to open my eyes to scriptures I have glossed over not just on modesty but so many other things. I had always in the past use the legalistic and Pharisee type of defense in so many things because indeed Pharisees were wrong in their heart about many things but Jesus didn't dismiss their practices only practices that were not motivated by the heart, the heart that Jesus wants to see. Remember when addressing them he said these you ought to have done without leaving the other things undone in other words he didn't tell them to quit doing what people consider legalistic.

To me one thing is really easy to determine when it comes to dress. In heaven robes seem to be the attire for whatever reason, but one might want to ponder that reason. And again this article goes into the fact that for 1900 years Christians understood modesty in a way that is not embraced today for the most part. And we tried to rationalize it and excuse it in all kinds of ways.

It's been very difficult for me once I made the change about 10 years ago to stay on that path. In my youth and almost all of my adult life before learning and a Baptist ways. I was an absolute lover of fashion. God has seemingly gifted me at an early age artistically and I would even dream about designing clothes. I absolutely enjoyed fashion putting outfits together etc. To this day even though I left that about 10 years ago every once in awhile I feel that pull back into the admiration of fashion it's just part of the old man I guess that wants the rear is ugly head.

I think on this form where we come from our past experience our understanding of scripture how we've been taught etc feeds into how we perceive all this

[JimFoxvog]

In heaven robes seem to be the attire for whatever reason, but one might want to ponder that reason.

Yes, robes of fine linen are repeatedly mentioned in the symbolic vision of John recorded in Revelation.

The robes are defined in chapter 19.

She has been given the privilege of wearing fine linen,
dazzling and pure.”
(The fine linen represents the righteous deeds of the saints.)

[Sudsy]

In heaven robes seem to be the attire for whatever reason, but one might want to ponder that reason.

Yes, robes of fine linen are repeatedly mentioned in the symbolic vision of John recorded in Revelation.

The robes are defined in chapter 19.

She has been given the privilege of wearing fine linen,
dazzling and pure.”
(The fine linen represents the righteous deeds of the saints.)

Interesting also that these robes in heaven appear to be worn by men as well as women. I have always wondered if we all came to our places of worship in a standardized robe for both men and women just how much attention would be taken off of body forms and other adornments and assist us in focusing on God. This is one thing that attracts me to the Salvation Army uniform although even in these uniforms there are add-ons that give special identification of roles.

[Sudsy]

Whenever this topic comes up it reveals what's going on in our hearts and minds doesn't it?

It really took the anabaptist to open my eyes to scriptures I have glossed over not just on modesty but so many other things. I had always in the past use the legalistic and Pharisee type of defense in so many things because indeed Pharisees were wrong in their heart about many things but Jesus didn't dismiss their practices only practices that were not motivated by the heart, the heart that Jesus wants to see. Remember when addressing them he said these you ought to have done without leaving the other things undone in other words he didn't tell them to quit doing what people consider legalistic.

To me one thing is really easy to determine when it comes to dress. In heaven robes seem to be the attire for whatever reason, but one might want to ponder that reason. And again this article goes into the fact that for 1900 years Christians understood modesty in a way that is not embraced today for the most part. And we tried to rationalize it and excuse it in all kinds of ways.

It's been very difficult for me once I made the change about 10 years ago to stay on that path. In my youth and almost all of my adult life before learning and a Baptist ways. I was an absolute lover of fashion. God has seemingly gifted me at an early age artistically and I would even dream about designing clothes. I absolutely enjoyed fashion putting outfits together etc. To this day even though I left that about 10 years ago every once in awhile I feel that pull back into the admiration of fashion it's just part of the old man I guess that wants the rear is ugly head.

I think on this form where we come from our past experience our understanding of scripture how we've been taught etc feeds into how we perceive all this

I agree with what you point out about the Pharisees. Actually I ran across this link and although my understandings differ a bit, I thought this was a good read on what Jesus said about the Pharisees - what they did right and what they did wrong. I recommend the read. https://www.gospelway.com/christianlife/pharisees.php

I know what you mean by being convicted that something is not the way that we should go even if other Christians don't have this same conviction. To me, this is what Romans 14 gets into. My father was a well known baseball player prior to his conversion who spent much of his Sunday's playing baseball including on travelling teams. One of his first convictions upon giving his life to the Lord was to give up what he treasured most, his baseball playing. He received much abuse from his friends when he made that change. His understanding of Sundays and living it unto the Lord was a Pentecostal approach back in those days that he was convicted to be correct for him.

I don't know if he went through temptations to backslide with this conviction, he never said, but I do know that he continued to love that sport and in his later years, when he bought a TV, watching baseball games was one of his favourite pass times.

Previously I had posted how the UPC church defined women's dress requirements in how they understood modesty to be applied. I wonder sometimes if we are 'adding to scripture' when we give specific required practises that are not stated specifically in scriptures ?

What are your thoughts on this when any group defines specifically the practise required by a word such as 'modest' to belong to their group of Christians ? Is this scriptural ?

[Beau Michel]

Well said sister