The Tendency to Turn All Sorts of Things into Ethical Matters

[Ernie]

Repeatedly, you've said that church can be suspended for a time but refused to ever say how long that time is in your eyes. You've said this could be good for us, but I've heard reports of weakened members, and I've seen members simply stop coming at all to church.

I don't think it is fair to say that I have refused to ever say... This is the first that I remember being asked this question...

I have repeatedly said that I believe there are ways for us to meet together in-person as believers, while still exercising mitigation measures. I have repeatedly said that I am fine with making exceptions to the state's mandates, whenever doing so would bring spiritual refreshment to shut-ins or may help advance the kingdom of God.

Initially we as a church did not meet for six weeks or so as a large group while we did research on the severity of the virus.

Twice since then, we have cancelled large group church services for a couple Sundays while Covid was going through our church community. The last time was about a month ago.

This last round, one of our elders (who didn't think mitigation measures were necessary and had fairly good health until he got Covid) ended up in the hospital for a month, hanging between life and death at times. He has been out of commission now for a couple months and we are not sure if he will be able to serve the congregation again in the future or not.
Two of the most robust men in our church (ages 38 and 42) ended up with severe sickness for more than 10 days with one being on oxygen for awhile. The latter is still quite weak physically and is very tired a lot of the time. Other families in our church had prolonged sickness as well. Our school teacher is asking for an anointing tomorrow because of difficulties she has with breathing since her bout with Covid. I mention this simply to say that anyone in our church who didn't think Covid was all that big of a deal, now has a healthy respect for this virus.

[Ernie]

You've said this could be good for us,

I think I said that Covid could be good for us if we see it as an opportunity rather than something negative. Some people view Covid and healthcare guidelines as something that is interrupting their normal way of doing things. They don't look for ways to harness the situation.
I have said that meeting in smaller groups for worship (during times when Covid is spreading) may be good for us in evaluating whether our current way of doing church lines up with the NT model. It could. It won't if we don't see it as an opportunity.
If we can't adjust our procedures and habits during a worldwide pandemic, and insist on doing what we have always done, we turn the issue into an ethical/moral imperative one.

[Wade]

You've said this could be good for us,

I think I said that Covid could be good for us if we see it as an opportunity rather than something negative. Some people view Covid and healthcare guidelines as something that is interrupting their normal way of doing things. They don't look for ways to harness the situation.
I have said that meeting in smaller groups for worship (during times when Covid is spreading) may be good for us in evaluating whether our current way of doing church lines up with the NT model. It could. It won't if we don't see it as an opportunity.
If we can't adjust our procedures and habits during a worldwide pandemic, and insist on doing what we have always done, we turn the issue into an ethical/moral imperative one.

Don't forget Ernie that the two people you replied to in the OP are seekers - we have never "always done it this way." I think flexibility comes quite easily to us or else we wouldn't be attending church services at all.
Maybe we are talking to attitudes we see in others closer to us that use similar language with not understanding the context of one another's comments fully?

[Ernie]

You've said this could be good for us,

I think I said that Covid could be good for us if we see it as an opportunity rather than something negative. Some people view Covid and healthcare guidelines as something that is interrupting their normal way of doing things. They don't look for ways to harness the situation.
I have said that meeting in smaller groups for worship (during times when Covid is spreading) may be good for us in evaluating whether our current way of doing church lines up with the NT model. It could. It won't if we don't see it as an opportunity.
If we can't adjust our procedures and habits during a worldwide pandemic, and insist on doing what we have always done, we turn the issue into an ethical/moral imperative one.

Don't forget Ernie that the two people you replied to in the OP are seekers - we have never "always done it this way." I think flexibility comes quite easily to us or else we wouldn't be attending church services at all.
Maybe we are talking to attitudes we see in others closer to us that use similar language with not understanding the context of one another's comments fully?

That is a good correction. I should have said... "the way we have been doing things".

[Ernie]

Perhaps you are referring specifically to matters of conscience?

Yes, that is a good clarification. Some Christians tend to turn wisdom issues, good-better-best issues, and/or matters of conscience into ethical issues or moral imperatives.

[Josh]

Don't forget Ernie that the two people you replied to in the OP are seekers - we have never "always done it this way." I think flexibility comes quite easily to us or else we wouldn't be attending church services at all.
Maybe we are talking to attitudes we see in others closer to us that use similar language with not understanding the context of one another's comments fully?

That is a good correction. I should have said... "the way we have been doing things".

You do know that us seekers are asked to completely turn our lives upside down, so that we can stop doing everything they way we are accustomed, and instead do everything "the way [you] have been doing things"?

So people like Wade and I question why, suddenly, all that gets thrown out the window in order to conform to the world. We heard that Sunday church attendance is so important we need to quit jobs if they would make us work on Sundays - we accepted that - so we are rather shocked when suddenly some people think it's okay to quit meeting for a year.

[Ernie]

so we are rather shocked when suddenly some people think it's okay to quit meeting for a year.

I certainly haven't ever promoted this or condoned this. I don't know of anybody on MN or any Plain people who promote or condone this. So this is shocking to me as well.

[Josh]

so we are rather shocked when suddenly some people think it's okay to quit meeting for a year.

I certainly haven't ever promoted this or condoned this. I don't know of anybody on MN or any Plain people who promote or condone this. So this is shocking to me as well.

Ernie,

Perhaps you could tell us how you think church, the greeting etc should be conducted?

[Ernie]

What do you deem as reasonable precautions that we are not even discussing? Stay home when you're sick? no one is arguing that... I think you are misreading people and ignoring those stuck in these extreme situations you pontificate away.

On average, Covid symptoms show up in the newly infected person about 5 days after contact. Rarely, symptoms appear as soon as 2 days after exposure. One study reported that 97.5% of people who became infected and have symptoms will do so within 11.5 days of SARS-CoV-2 infection. In rare cases, symptoms can show up after 14 days.

Some people may have the coronavirus and never show symptoms. Others may not know that they have it because their symptoms are very mild. Current studies might not include the mildest cases, and the incubation period could be different for these.

When Is the Coronavirus the Most Contagious?
Researchers estimate that people who get infected with the coronavirus can spread it to others 2 to 3 days before symptoms start and are most contagious 1 to 2 days before they feel sick.
https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus- ... n-period#1

As compared with Influenza A and B

When Flu Spreads
People with flu are most contagious in the first three to four days after their illness begins. Most healthy adults may be able to infect others beginning 1 day before symptoms develop and up to 5 to 7 days after becoming sick. Children and some people with weakened immune systems may pass the virus for longer than 7 days.

Symptoms can begin about 2 days (but can range from 1 to 4 days) after the virus enters the body. That means that you may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Some people can be infected with the flu virus but have no symptoms. During this time, those people may still spread the virus to others.

People with flu are most contagious in the first 3-4 days after their illness begins.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm

So the biggest difference with Covid (as compared to Influenza) from what I can understand is the time when people are most contagious. If the virus is in your household, "well" family members could easily be spreading it.

In light of this, here is what I recommend for mitigating the spread of Covid whenever there are outbreaks in ones' community or region or if an outbreak is possibly about to happen... (This is what we try to practice as a family.)

1. When possible, talk to others from a distance of 6-10 feet away or wear a mask.
2. If you are inclined to shake hands with people or believe that Christians should practice the Holy Kiss during a pandemic of this nature, do so and then back away.
3. Use sanitizer or wash your hands with soap and warm water after touching things others have recently touched.
4. Cough into your elbow rather than into your hand.
5. Meet outdoors when possible. When meeting indoors, have airflow through the building if possible.
6. Meet in smaller groups rather than larger groups.
7. Where a mask when riding in a vehicle with non-family members.
8. Sing in open areas with some physical distance between one's self and non-family members.

In addition,
If you or a family member have been exposed to someone with Covid, self-quarantine or take additional measures to help protect others from getting your virus.

[PetrChelcicky]

Ernie,
The problems you scent here have found a more precise treatment in different ways in theology and philosophy. Or better we can say that a precise understanding has shown that there are more than one problem, but most of them are related to each other.

- For example, I recommend to you the Catholic tradition of "casuistry". Catholics used extreme moral laxism and extreme moral rigorism as the outposts, but detected that there were some positions in-between, like probabilism (you may do it, if it is probably right) or probabiliorism (you ought to do what is more probably right).
- Or gnoseological fallibilism, applied to moral questions.
- Or the critique of decisionim. That's for me an interesting point because it was the base of pro-American writings here in Germany after WWII (like Eberhard Mueller or Theodor Wilhelm). Moral reasoning in Germany tended to follow the "juridical" line, in which concrete decisions were justified by principles which when attacked were justified by more abstract principles - until at last the contrahents found that the had different supreme principles or dogmas which were a matter of belief (or a decision for a belief, thus "decisionism"). In contrast, German observers during and after WW2 were fascinated by American "pragmatism" which allowed to leave such (allegedly inevitable) dogmas or "last principles" aside and come to a common result.
- Then there is actual law which demands the legal professions not to treat one single norm as an absolute. The more norms (also the more "human rights") there are, the more a judge needs to solve "norm conflicts" and to find a way between the single norms. This is (or was at least) for the judge not a matter of deliberate political activism, but of scholarly weighing and there are technical rules for it.
- My personal shtick has always been contrasting "interests" against "ideals" or "values". These "ideals" or "values" are at best vague abbreviations of normative propositions, at worst there are mere "flag words" behind which to gather for a fight. (Just now, "democratic values" are a flag word for to collect Europeans in a fight against Poland or Hungary.) On the other hand love is a kind of interest - if I love a person I am interested in his/her happiness.
And interests are by nature graduable and thus negotiable or balanceable.