Denominational Statements about Religious Exemptions to Vaccines

[Soloist]

Right now I'm looking at the WA state vaccine exemption form that was in effect prior to Covid. It is all about membership in a church or religion that rejects medical treatment. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume ... mption.pdf New forms will obviously be drawn up that are tailored towards Covid. They will be as narrowly drawn up as the lawyers think will withstand scrutiny. Having worked in a bureaucracy, I have no doubt whatever they come up with will pass through multiple levels of legal review.

People may or may not challenge them on legal grounds. And they may or may not win depending on the court and arguments that they make. But that is a long and costly process and meanwhile you might still be fired from your job.

But that's not really my point at all. My point is that any denominations that support religious exemptions to Covid vaccine requirements are going to come out with well thought out PUBLIC positions that their members can point to when claiming exemptions. Assuming that they want to help their members claim exemptions. If not I suppose they will be fine with leaving them hanging on their own.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume ... mption.pdf

Doesn't look like the form agrees with you.

Edit: I realized I posted the same thing as you, please note its making a distinction between no medical treatment allowed by church group versus personal religious conviction on some vaccines.

[Ken]

Right now I'm looking at the WA state vaccine exemption form that was in effect prior to Covid. It is all about membership in a church or religion that rejects medical treatment. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume ... mption.pdf New forms will obviously be drawn up that are tailored towards Covid. They will be as narrowly drawn up as the lawyers think will withstand scrutiny. Having worked in a bureaucracy, I have no doubt whatever they come up with will pass through multiple levels of legal review.

People may or may not challenge them on legal grounds. And they may or may not win depending on the court and arguments that they make. But that is a long and costly process and meanwhile you might still be fired from your job.

But that's not really my point at all. My point is that any denominations that support religious exemptions to Covid vaccine requirements are going to come out with well thought out PUBLIC positions that their members can point to when claiming exemptions. Assuming that they want to help their members claim exemptions. If not I suppose they will be fine with leaving them hanging on their own.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume ... mption.pdf

Doesn't look like the form agrees with you.

Read it again. There are three separate exemptions on the old form. A personal/philosophical exemption, a medical exemption, and a religious exemption. The religious exemption requires that you certify that you are a member of a religious group or religion that opposes medical treatment.

The personal/philosophical exemption has been stripped out of the recent governor's order so that all that will be left are the medical exemptions and religious exemption.

We don't know what the new forms will look like because they don't exist yet. Or at least haven't been made public. But they will be different from the ones above.

[Josh]

Right now I'm looking at the WA state vaccine exemption form that was in effect prior to Covid. It is all about membership in a church or religion that rejects medical treatment. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume ... mption.pdf

No. Membership in a denomination that rejects medical treatment exempts someone from having to see a medical practitioner and have them fill out a form confirming someone has a religious objection to vaccines.

No religious membership in a denomination is required to have a religious exemption in Wa. State.

New forms will obviously be drawn up that are tailored towards Covid. They will be as narrowly drawn up as the lawyers think will withstand scrutiny. Having worked in a bureaucracy, I have no doubt whatever they come up with will pass through multiple levels of legal review.

Narrowly drawn up? How is that a good thing? Do you think it's good to restrict people's religious freedom and freedom of conscience?

And why would "new forms be drawn up"? Shouldn't existing law be enough? I hope you aren't saying the bureaucracy will ignore the law and make up their own rules.

People may or may not challenge them on legal grounds. And they may or may not win depending on the court and arguments that they make. But that is a long and costly process and meanwhile you might still be fired from your job.

I am much more concerned about facing judgment day, explaining why I was OK with abusing tissue from an aborted baby, than I am of "losing my job" or a "long and costly process". You seem to be very eager, though, to talk about threatening to fire someone from their job. I hope you can understand this is the exact situation that Soloist is in. You seem to take an almost perverse delight in it.

But that's not really my point at all. My point is that any denominations that support religious exemptions to Covid vaccine requirements are going to come out with well thought out PUBLIC positions that their members can point to when claiming exemptions.

These positions were already trotted out and stated publicly 15 years ago (including in my own denomination). We took a stand against both abortions and using tissue from abortions. Since there wasn't much widespread research using stem cell tissue back then, and obviously no mRNA vaccines, it didn't go beyond that.

Assuming that they want to help their members claim exemptions. If not I suppose they will be fine with leaving them hanging on their own.

I have faith in the Lord, as I suspect other Mennonites do, not in some denomination. I don't rely on some church organisation or heirarchy to save me, and in fact, my church teaches that my church membership will not be good enough on judgment day. We are to rely on the Lord, and to be willing to take a stand to obey him.

[Soloist]

Read it again. There are three separate exemptions on the old form. A personal/philosophical exemption, a medical exemption, and a religious exemption. The religious exemption requires that you certify that you are a member of a religious group or religion that opposes medical treatment.

The personal/philosophical exemption has been stripped out of the recent governor's order so that all that will be left are the medical exemptions and religious exemption.

Personal/Philosophical or Religious Exemption
I am exempting my child from the requirement my child be vaccinated against the following disease(s) to attend school or child care.
(Select an exemption type and the vaccinations you wish to exempt your child from):

Parent/Guardian Declaration
One or more of the required vaccines are in conflict with my personal, philosophical, or religious beliefs. I have discussed the benefits and
risks of immunizations with the health care practitioner (signed below). I have been told if an outbreak of vaccine-preventable disease
occurs for which my child is exempted, my child may be excluded from their school or child care for the duration of the outbreak. The
information on this form is complete and correct.

RELIGIOUS MEMBERSHIP EXEMPTION
Complete this section ONLY if you belong to a church or religion that objects to the use of medical treatment. Use the section above if you
have a religious objection to vaccinations but the beliefs or teachings of your church or religion allow for your child to be treated by medical
professionals such as doctors and nurses.

Two separate sections. You are misreading it

[Josh]

I can tell you one thing.

I sure hope Ken is never running a draft board, because he'll send me straight to Ft. Leavenworth, regardless of what the law actually says about conscientious objection.

He has an Ohioan and Oregonian explaining to him how the vaccine exemption laws in his own state work. (Why do I even know or care? Because I happen to have friends in Vancouver WA who have been opposed to vaccines for years and are very familiar with what their rights are. I used to sometimes argue with them, because I don't take the anti-vaccine stance that they do.)

[Ken]

Read it again. There are three separate exemptions on the old form. A personal/philosophical exemption, a medical exemption, and a religious exemption. The religious exemption requires that you certify that you are a member of a religious group or religion that opposes medical treatment.

The personal/philosophical exemption has been stripped out of the recent governor's order so that all that will be left are the medical exemptions and religious exemption.

Personal/Philosophical or Religious Exemption
I am exempting my child from the requirement my child be vaccinated against the following disease(s) to attend school or child care.
(Select an exemption type and the vaccinations you wish to exempt your child from):

Parent/Guardian Declaration
One or more of the required vaccines are in conflict with my personal, philosophical, or religious beliefs. I have discussed the benefits and
risks of immunizations with the health care practitioner (signed below). I have been told if an outbreak of vaccine-preventable disease
occurs for which my child is exempted, my child may be excluded from their school or child care for the duration of the outbreak. The
information on this form is complete and correct.

RELIGIOUS MEMBERSHIP EXEMPTION
Complete this section ONLY if you belong to a church or religion that objects to the use of medical treatment. Use the section above if you
have a religious objection to vaccinations but the beliefs or teachings of your church or religion allow for your child to be treated by medical
professionals such as doctors and nurses.

Two separate sections. You are misreading it

OK, I stand corrected.

Nevertheless this isn't my main point at all. My main point is that this sort of thing is coming to states and federal agencies across the country. They will likely all have different forms. Some states won't even have religious exemptions. And any denomination that wishes to support its members in claiming religious exemptions is going to have to come out with public positions articulating why.

Which gets us back to the main thrust of this thread before we diverted down this side path. I am very curious to see which denominations are going to come out with public anti-vax statements on religious grounds and what exact arguments they are going to use.

[Soloist]

OK, I stand corrected.

Nevertheless this isn't my main point at all. My main point is that this sort of thing is coming to states and federal agencies across the country. They will likely all have different forms. Some states won't even have religious exemptions. And any denomination that wishes to support its members in claiming religious exemptions is going to have to come out with public positions articulating why.

Which gets us back to the main thrust of this thread before we diverted down this side path. I am very curious to see which denominations are going to come out with public anti-vax statements on religious grounds and what exact arguments they are going to use.

I don't know... likely a lot of this is my body, its the temple argument. Most people are ignorant of the fetal cells and even if they had a stance on it, they could be discredited by the medications they use or vaccines they have accepted unless they have a clear line of conviction change prior to covid.
There are some Catholic groups that do have legitimate objections including Bishops supporting it, but the Pope's statements undermine their legitimacy and it becomes deeply complicated dealing with exact wording and Catholic position papers...

[Josh]

Nevertheless this isn't my main point at all. My main point is that this sort of thing is coming to states and federal agencies across the country. They will likely all have different forms. Some states won't even have religious exemptions. And any denomination that wishes to support its members in claiming religious exemptions is going to have to come out with public positions articulating why.

Which gets us back to the main thrust of this thread before we diverted down this side path. I am very curious to see which denominations are going to come out with public anti-vax statements on religious grounds and what exact arguments they are going to use.

Any large denomination (like, say, SBC) would be under incredible pressure to not come out with such a statement, or at least to carve out a temporary exception for these specific vaccines.

A small denomination such as mine own would be irrelevant. Nobody will have ever heard of it, and it doesn't exactly have a staff of lawyers ready to prepare sophisticated arguments on behalf of its members. We don't produce "public position" papers for legal reasons. Most documents produced with a position are for our own members, where we have tried to discern what we feel the Lord would have us do and is aligned with scripture.

We do engage the government sometimes. For example, individual congregations talked to local health departments about holding church services or not, and making changes like limiting attendance. Right now some of our leadership is meeting with Selective Service System. There is no national agency to go meet with about religious exemptions for vaccines, and we don't have a denominational position anyway. Those kind of positions across the denomination would only emerge after a General Conference, which happens every 5 - 10 years or so, and we obviously haven't had one last year.

If anybody cares, we do have a position against abortion and use of fetal stem cells, but that's an old decision and it doesn't say anything specific about vaccines.

Many Mennonites & Amish are part of congregations that are independent. There isn't some big denomination producing paperwork and position papers. Yet these groups seem to have the most religious exemptions from things that virtually nobody else does, like Social Security taxes.

[Ken]

Many Mennonites & Amish are part of congregations that are independent. There isn't some big denomination producing paperwork and position papers. Yet these groups seem to have the most religious exemptions from things that virtually nobody else does, like Social Security taxes.

You do realize that the history is far more complicated than you allow.

The Amish actually sued and the case went all the way to the Supreme Court which, in 1982 ruled unanimously in United States vs. Lee that the Amish were not exempt from Social Security taxes because Congress had not specifically exempted them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... Lee_(1982)

Congress subsequently stepped in and amended the Social Security Act to provide for an exemption to paying social security taxes for the Amish provided that (1) they forgo any claim to future social security benefits, and (2) the government determines that they have adequate alternative social provisions in place for their own elderly members to prevent them from falling into poverty and becoming public wards. I'm not sure when exactly this happened, probably with the 1984 Amendments to the Social Security Act.

In any event, throughout this long process the Amish involved most certainly employed lawyers and there were no doubt lobbyists involved and they laid out detailed legal and religious arguments to the government and courts. The current status quo is simply the end result of that process.

[Bootstrap]

Ken, could you please discuss this topic, from the assumption that abortion is wrong, or leave the thread? I want to discuss this specific issue there are other threads where you can discuss your views on other things.

Here's the basic question I want to discuss: As a Christian, should I get the Covid-19 vaccine? Does it matter which one I get? I think this has been addressed somewhat in various threads, but I don't think we've discussed the ethical questions in enough depth.

To me, the tradeoff involves:

1. The use of stem cells during development or testing of vaccines, versus
2. The dangers we may cause others if we choose not to be vaccinated.

Are there other basic ethical questions that need to be considered? When I look at this, I see this as more or less equivalent to:

1. Will more babies be killed if I take the vaccine? versus
2. Could other people die if I don't take the vaccine? Or could I die without good reason, leaving my wife and family without me?

Do we mostly agree that those are the right questions, even if we might disagree about the answers to these questions? Imagine we all knew that each shot of Covid-19 vaccine resulted in a baby getting killed, I'm pretty sure none of us would take that shot. Imagine we all knew that failure to get a Covid-19 vaccine would result in our parents or grandparents getting Covid-19 and dying, I'm pretty sure we would all get that shot. So does answering the two questions above answer the basic ethical questions?

Let's see if we can have a respectful dialog about the ethics of Covid-19 vaccinations. I assume people on both sides of this are wrestling with the same ethical questions, can we please try to discuss the issue without pointing fingers?