Performing Arts, Big Business, Pride, Worldliness

[seeking-artist]

That's nice. Plain Anabaptists are not such a culture, and have decided that we don't do things like clap in church services. I do not understand the relentless push from some to try to turn plain Anabaptists into not-plain-Anabaptists. Aren't there plenty of other church groups to go be a part of if you don't like plain Anabaptism?

Sure..but perhaps don't also assume it is therefore then about "show" where it exists. If I were attending an ultra church I wouldn't clap after the preacher sits down. In some settings I would...

Do practices matter? I think they do. Head and heart shape practices and practices shape head and heart. Or we could say that what we love shapes our practices and our practices shape what we love.

Do you think practices like applause violate biblical principles? If so, can you argue for this directly? It feels like you are insinuating things without following up with an argument.

[joshuabgood]

Do you believe that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder?

Perhaps like the question does the end justify the means, this question to me is a nuanced question that doesn't have "black and white" answers. I would say it depends on various contextual factors. Sometimes/places yes, other times, no.

Do you believe that beauty is of God and that consequently some art points to God and other art obscures or moves people away from God.

This question also needs nuance in my view. In some ways yes, however, I think art can also express the futility of the human condition, which may not be "pretty," but simultaneously bring us a clearer picture of reality, and in said truth/reality, be better positioned to see God. The second part of the question leans heavily on what one means by art...though my quick answer is that generally I would affirm that, using a colloquial definition, some art does move people away from God. For instance a song whose message is encouraging something that contradicts the first and second greatest commanadments.

Can art be judged and evaluated as to what is indeed beautiful or ugly, and what draws people nearer to God and what pushes people away from him?

My quick answer again is these are nuanced questions, but generally I would answer yes and yes. However I would hasten to add that words like beautiful seem insufficient to capture the whole of art. The imprecatory Psalms for example aren't what I would label as beautiful. (For instance, is the vortex of a tornado beautiful?) And also I can pretty easily imagine art that in some cases may draw some folks nearer to God while causing problems for others.

[joshuabgood]

That's nice. Plain Anabaptists are not such a culture, and have decided that we don't do things like clap in church services. I do not understand the relentless push from some to try to turn plain Anabaptists into not-plain-Anabaptists. Aren't there plenty of other church groups to go be a part of if you don't like plain Anabaptism?

Sure..but perhaps don't also assume it is therefore then about "show" where it exists. If I were attending an ultra church I wouldn't clap after the preacher sits down. In some settings I would...

Do practices matter? I think they do. Head and heart shape practices and practices shape head and heart. Or we could say that what we love shapes our practices and our practices shape what we love.

I see what you are saying...at the same time, though I speak with the tongue of men and angels, though I give my body to be burned, though I have prophetic practices, though I give away all that I have, though I have faith to remove mountains...but have not love, I gain nothing.

[R7ehr]

I think our deeper disagreement here isn't really about excellence vs. pride anymore. It's about what makes work valuable in the first place. Your argument appears to be separating work into more valuable and less valuable forms - a hierarchy of work. The more directly it meets an identifiable human need or contributes to human flourishing, the more legitimate and valuable it is. My view goes in a different direction. And I think "human flourishing" actually strengthens my case. Things like beauty, music, friendship, scientific discovery, knowledge, and recreation are part of human flourishing. I'm trying to avoid an ascetic dualism that separates the spiritual and the physical and results in Christians being deeply suspicious of beauty and aesthetics because we receive beauty initially through our physical senses. I'm also pushing against identification of beauty with idolatry; idolatry is a problem of the heart, not a problem with beauty itself or with the creation and admiration of beauty. And I'm trying to avoid the modernist separation of the spiritual and the secular, and avoid making "secular" work only valuable insomuch as it provides funding for "spiritual" things like missions and so on.

There does exist a correct hierarchy of values in work. A person with an empty belly will sell all the art he has to fill it. And the homeless person freezing to death in the dark and cold will go inside, instead of enjoying a most exquisitely performed outdoor winter nightime symphony.
As much as these things may enrich, as much as they are important, etc, there does still exist a hierarchy of importance in this world. Health is another big one.
Consider Maslow’s hiarchy of human needs. Consider “with food and raiment be content” not with art and music).

[seeking-artist]

There does exist a correct hierarchy of values in work. A person with an empty belly will sell all the art he has to fill it. And the homeless person freezing to death in the dark and cold will go inside, instead of enjoying a most exquisitely performed outdoor winter nightime symphony.
As much as these things may enrich, as much as they are important, etc, there does still exist a hierarchy of importance in this world. Health is another big one.
Consider Maslow’s hiarchy of human needs. Consider “with food and raiment be content” not with art and music).

I don't think anyone would disagree that the arts don't work when those trying to enjoy them are freezing or starving to death. I fail to see what this proves in 21st century America. We're not forced to make tradeoffs between survival and enjoying things like art. Besides, isn't the whole point of Maslow's hierarchy that as the lower needs are met, time can productively go to developing the higher levels? Additionally, many strong Christian values, like community and discipleship, are not on the lower levels. We don't think the work of home builder is inherently more worthwhile than that of a preacher or missionary, do we?

[barnhart]

Maybe it is because of my geography, but I don't see much correlation between "Plain Anabaptism" and an emphasis on keeping business small. I do see "Plain Anabaptists" providing support, education, marketing, HR advice, legal advice, financial backing...etc to the tune of an $800mill operation. Real estate sold and acquired by the Plain community for tens of millions of dollars, etc etc. CEO's/CFO's, even of Plain Anabaptist nonprofits making well into 6 figures, etc. And I don't fault that for the record. In fact I support industry and stewardship of business and community and economy. I am only noting that from my perspective, I don't see Plain Anabaptists in my community really as described above.

I see most of these folks in transition to not being Plain Anabaptists anymore. It is the truly Plain Anabaptists that keep the movement and its intrinsic values alive.

This is likely true. I would also add all the groups you think of as "plain" are also in transition. Every generation steps into a different river of culture and influence, there is no safety in refusing change because the refusal itself is a powerful new position that points in a new direction.

[R7ehr]

There does exist a correct hierarchy of values in work. A person with an empty belly will sell all the art he has to fill it. And the homeless person freezing to death in the dark and cold will go inside, instead of enjoying a most exquisitely performed outdoor winter nightime symphony.
As much as these things may enrich, as much as they are important, etc, there does still exist a hierarchy of importance in this world. Health is another big one.
Consider Maslow’s hiarchy of human needs. Consider “with food and raiment be content” not with art and music).

I don't think anyone would disagree that the arts don't work when those trying to enjoy them are freezing or starving to death. I fail to see what this proves in 21st century America. We're not forced to make tradeoffs between survival and enjoying things like art. Besides, isn't the whole point of Maslow's hierarchy that as the lower needs are met, time can productively go to developing the higher levels? Additionally, many strong Christian values, like community and discipleship, are not on the lower levels. We don't think the work of home builder is inherently more worthwhile than that of a preacher or missionary, do we?

I understood Matt to be saying that no such hiarchy exists. And perhaps going further to propose that meeting the soulish needs of mankind is higher in his estimation, than meeting mankinds physical needs.
Spiritual needs being met are the third element.
These separations are what he says that he is trying to avoid. I think one cannot help but acknowledge they exist.
I am comparing occupations that meet mankinds physical needs, vs. mankinds soulish needs.

[MattY]

I think our deeper disagreement here isn't really about excellence vs. pride anymore. It's about what makes work valuable in the first place. Your argument appears to be separating work into more valuable and less valuable forms - a hierarchy of work. The more directly it meets an identifiable human need or contributes to human flourishing, the more legitimate and valuable it is. My view goes in a different direction. And I think "human flourishing" actually strengthens my case. Things like beauty, music, friendship, scientific discovery, knowledge, and recreation are part of human flourishing. I'm trying to avoid an ascetic dualism that separates the spiritual and the physical and results in Christians being deeply suspicious of beauty and aesthetics because we receive beauty initially through our physical senses. I'm also pushing against identification of beauty with idolatry; idolatry is a problem of the heart, not a problem with beauty itself or with the creation and admiration of beauty. And I'm trying to avoid the modernist separation of the spiritual and the secular, and avoid making "secular" work only valuable insomuch as it provides funding for "spiritual" things like missions and so on.

There does exist a correct hierarchy of values in work. A person with an empty belly will sell all the art he has to fill it. And the homeless person freezing to death in the dark and cold will go inside, instead of enjoying a most exquisitely performed outdoor winter nightime symphony.
As much as these things may enrich, as much as they are important, etc, there does still exist a hierarchy of importance in this world. Health is another big one.
Consider Maslow’s hiarchy of human needs. Consider “with food and raiment be content” not with art and music).

I see what you are saying and of course what a person needs immediately in their specific context may vary. If a man needs food and I offer him a song and then tell him to go on his way, "be warm and filled", I have not fulfilled my Christian duty to him. I don't know that this justifies a utilitarian or service-based hierarchy of work though; such a perspective doesn't seem to take into account the image of God in man, God's good creation, and how our work glorifies God. So I think a Christian perspective has to go deeper than that and be more holistic. Various professions glorify God and cultivate good things in various ways. Just because I may have a full fridge and a full freezer doesn't make a farmer's work less intrinsically good or valuable. The value of our work comes from the fact that we bear God's image and we serve both God and our neighbors by using our skills and talents to our best ability in our everyday life and work. All honest, lawful work ("lawful" in the sense of God's law - not pornography, burglary, etc.) builds civilization and serves our neighbors. Art, such as music, is one area of ordinary human work and therefore should be evaluated with the same criteria as other vocations. For example, obviously a Christian builder should not build a strip club; neither should an artist produce nude or sexually suggestive performances. A Christian builder may earn a lot of money through his legitimate work; what he does with that money should be evaluated just the same as what a Christian musician does with the wealth he has earned.

I had not heard of Maslow's hierarchy of human needs before, but a quick Google search seems to suggest a possible conflict between his hierarchy and a Christian evaluation. In his view, physical needs come first and spiritual needs last, or maybe even absent - I don't see a need for God and salvation listed. A Christian view would probably turn that upside down, or at least it would be more holistic.

[seeking-artist]

I understood Matt to be saying that no such hiarchy exists. And perhaps going further to propose that meeting the soulish needs of mankind is higher in his estimation, than meeting mankinds physical needs.
Spiritual needs being met are the third element.
These separations are what he says that he is trying to avoid. I think one cannot help but acknowledge they exist.
I am comparing occupations that meet mankinds physical needs, vs. mankinds soulish needs.

Different hierarchies exist simultaneously. It's hard for me to enjoy fellowship with my wife if I'm shivering and hungry. That doesn't mean that building shelter and cooking food is of more value than meaningful human relationships. So yes, some things need to be taken care of before other things can be enjoyed, hence Maslow's hierarchy. That's different from saying that the lower levels in Maslow's hierarchy are inherently more good and valuable. In fact, the things we most value as Christians aren't even in the lower categories.

I think the introduction of Maslow's hierarchy was a red herring.

[R7ehr]

I think the introduction of Maslow's hierarchy was a red herring.

How so?