The Israeli state?

[Nomad]

If I were writing this, I would say "The true Israel is believers in the Messiah, whether they are Jews, Israelis, or Gentiles."
1. Deleting "today" because this is not new; it's even present in shadowy form in the Old Testament.
2. Removing the insinuation that Jews or Israelis are not part of true Israel; they can be, but on the same terms as anyone else.

"Shadowy form"? Care to elaborate?

Should I elaborate in comparison to the belief that it's clear and not shadowy, or in contrast to the position that it's not there at all?

I'm assuming by "True Israel" you are making it synonymous with the Church by your stating it includes Jews, Israelis, or Gentiles.

I'm more wondering how you define Gentiles as part of the "True Israel" in the shadowy forms of the OT. I've heard people infer it but have never seen how they are able to take passages of future restoration for the nation Israel that are clearly directed toward Israel in the Old Testament and make it a shadow of the Church.

[ohio jones]

"Shadowy form"? Care to elaborate?

Should I elaborate in comparison to the belief that it's clear and not shadowy, or in contrast to the position that it's not there at all?

I'm assuming by "True Israel" you are making it synonymous with the Church by your stating it includes Jews, Israelis, or Gentiles.

I'm more wondering how you define Gentiles as part of the "True Israel" in the shadowy forms of the OT. I've heard people infer it but have never seen how they are able to take passages of future restoration for the nation Israel that are clearly directed toward Israel in the Old Testament and make it a shadow of the Church.

I'm approaching this from the perspective that "True Israel" and "the Church" are not two separate things that need to be somehow reconciled or made synonymous. Rather, as N.T. Wright puts it, there is a "single-plan-through-Israel-for-the-world" that is revealed progressively.

Gentiles were incorporated into physical Israel in the Exodus (the mixed multitude of Exodus 12:38 and Numbers 11:4) and allowed to keep the Passover as an Israelite (Exodus 12:48-49). They became ancestors of the Messiah (Rahab, Ruth). See also Isaiah 14:1 and Ezekiel 47:22.

Gentiles were and are incorporated into spiritual Israel ("True Israel") by faith (Rahab, Hebrews 11) and through the work of Christ, Ephesians 2 and Romans 11.

Perhaps the clearest reference to the "future restoration for the nation Israel" that includes Gentile believers is in Acts 15:16-17, where James quotes Amos 9:

After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.

[Nomad]

Should I elaborate in comparison to the belief that it's clear and not shadowy, or in contrast to the position that it's not there at all?

I'm assuming by "True Israel" you are making it synonymous with the Church by your stating it includes Jews, Israelis, or Gentiles.

I'm more wondering how you define Gentiles as part of the "True Israel" in the shadowy forms of the OT. I've heard people infer it but have never seen how they are able to take passages of future restoration for the nation Israel that are clearly directed toward Israel in the Old Testament and make it a shadow of the Church.

I'm approaching this from the perspective that "True Israel" and "the Church" are not two separate things that need to be somehow reconciled or made synonymous. Rather, as N.T. Wright puts it, there is a "single-plan-through-Israel-for-the-world" that is revealed progressively.

Gentiles were incorporated into physical Israel in the Exodus (the mixed multitude of Exodus 12:38 and Numbers 11:4) and allowed to keep the Passover as an Israelite (Exodus 12:48-49). They became ancestors of the Messiah (Rahab, Ruth). See also Isaiah 14:1 and Ezekiel 47:22.

Gentiles were and are incorporated into spiritual Israel ("True Israel") by faith (Rahab, Hebrews 11) and through the work of Christ, Ephesians 2 and Romans 11.

Perhaps the clearest reference to the "future restoration for the nation Israel" that includes Gentile believers is in Acts 15:16-17, where James quotes Amos 9:

After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to share that perspective. While I see a single progressive plan of God for salvation to mankind, I probably would put more of a distinction between Israel and the Church.

[Robert]

If you reject that responsibility , you are effectively saying Jim Crow in the south in the early half of the last century was ok.

Speak for yourself. Do not speak for me.

[Josh]

What is the difference between “Israel” and the church?

Specifically, it is very clear that salvation is offered to individuals, and not a national basis. And more importantly, individuals who don’t accept Christ or who reject him won’t be saved. In this understanding it’s hard for me to see what exactly any of these “promises” to “Israel” even mean.

[Judas Maccabeus]

If you reject that responsibility , you are effectively saying Jim Crow in the south in the early half of the last century was ok.

Speak for yourself. Do not speak for me.

I am. I am posing a hypothetical, but logical consequence of such a position. I speak only for myself.

[Nomad]

What is the difference between “Israel” and the church?

Specifically, it is very clear that salvation is offered to individuals, and not a national basis. And more importantly, individuals who don’t accept Christ or who reject him won’t be saved. In this understanding it’s hard for me to see what exactly any of these “promises” to “Israel” even mean.

Its true that salvation is based on the individuals heart turning to God in faith and repentance. But its not unheard of for God to work with a nation collectively. He did this all through the Old Testament...including Gentile nations (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, etc...). When He brought Israel out of Egypt it was a nation He brought out.

Psalms 147:19-20
"[19]He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
[20]He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD."

Romans 11:7-11a shows how Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as Messiah and Romans 11:25-26 speaks of how Israel as a collective nation will be saved after the fulness of the Gentiles. To be saved they must repent as a nation and believe that Jesus is their Messiah...and there is scripture to back up this event:

Zechariah 12:8-10
"[8]In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
[9]And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[10]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

[MattY]

I agree with Nomad. I see multiple senses of terms like seed of Abraham, Jew, etc. A Jew, the physical seed of Abraham, can come to Christ now and be saved, and join the church, which is an entirely new body ("one new man", Ephesians 2:15), a multi-ethnic, transnational group comprised of the redeemed of all people in this age, Jew and Gentile alike, who are united as spiritual seed of Abraham. The promises to national Israel only will happen when all of national Israel comes to faith in Christ; they are held out to all Israel (Matt. 23:37-39; Rom. 10:21), but only those who believe will receive them. The same was true in the Old Testament; they (the individuals/the current generation) could lose their land and be exiled if they forsook God, and any individuals who didn't follow God were not saved and were lost for eternity without access to the future Messiah's kingdom.

[Josh]

My perspective is that many Israelites accepted Christ and indeed created what is now the church. They were the first Christians.

The unbelievers perished in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt again. The continuation of “Israel” in the church and Christians, going all the way back to those first Jews who believed.

The modern day state of Israel has nothing at all to do with biblical prophecy or God’s promises - it is a country just like Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or Egypt or Gaza or the West Bank. It has no special spiritual significance.

[mike]

My perspective is that many Israelites accepted Christ and indeed created what is now the church. They were the first Christians.

The unbelievers perished in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt again. The continuation of “Israel” in the church and Christians, going all the way back to those first Jews who believed.

The modern day state of Israel has nothing at all to do with biblical prophecy or God’s promises - it is a country just like Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or Egypt or Gaza or the West Bank. It has no special spiritual significance.

That's precisely the way I see it.

The incredible amount of energy that has been expended by many Christians in the last couple of generations in support of modern Israel, the study of prophetic and apocalyptic writings in the Bible with a view to read current events back into the text, and the unbelievable proliferation of books, conferences, sermons, and discussion on the topic have all done little to nothing to advance the kingdom of heaven. All this may even have been one of the greatest detriments to the Christian faith in the recent past, who knows.