Do Plain Catholics exist?

[ken_sylvania]

The question I keep coming back to is what is the purpose of all of this.

Say, for example, that I am an LGBT advocate and that I decide to invent a branch of the Amish church that I'm going to call LGBT Amish. A group of Amish who are friendly towards LGBT rights, that accommodate gay marriage and gay/trans membership. Maybe I even put up a web site with photoshopped or staged photos of gay Amish men or women holding hands, kissing, etc. Or of Amish families with two dads or two mothers. Maybe a rainbow sticker on a buggy, and so forth. And maybe I borrow some LGBT-friendly theological language from some other liberal denomination that is actually LGBT-friendly and say "We are the LGBT Amish and these are the things that we believe...."

Now the Amish are a pretty big and growing group. So there are no doubt some Amish who are, indeed gay. And some who no doubt are friendly or accommodating to LGBT people in their personal beliefs. The Amish have diversity like any other group. But it is certainly not the case that there are actual LGBT Amish CONGREGATIONS out there. And if I claimed that there were, the first thing that most people would say is: That is nonsense. SHOW us this actual LGBT Amish congregation.

So what would be my motivation in working up this sort of false claim? I suppose if I am an LGBT advocate then my motivation might be to advance LGBT rights by claiming: "See, even conservative groups like the Amish are coming around to our way of thinking" So do LGBT Amish exist? Undoubtedly. But are there organized congregations of LGBT Amish? Absolutely not. And a fake web site isn't going to make it so.

Turning to the issue of plain Catholics. Just like there are undoubtedly a few gay Amish out there, with 1.4 Catholics on the planet there are no doubt some Catholics who look with approval at the plain lifestyle of Anabaptists and even perhaps model part of it. When you have a population of over 1 billion people there are no doubt going to be every conceivable type of person represented. But that is very different from claiming that there are actual CONGREGATIONS of plain Amish that adhere to some apostate plain version of Catholicism that diverges from the teachings of the Roman Catholic church. In fact, the structure of the Catholic church is actually organized to prevent that sort of thing in through the dioceses structure in which local communities do not choose their leadership like Protestants. They are assigned by the Bishop of the diocese. And often come from long distances or even overseas. For example, the local Catholic church near my house has a priest shipped in from India.

So what is the motivation behind claiming that there are congregations of "plain Catholics" out there? Is it to infiltrate Catholic teachings into Anabaptism? Is it to simply try to gain "cred" when participating in discussions about plain Anabaptism. I have no idea, but that is the correct question to ask.

To be fair, has Max ever claimed that there are congregations of "plain Catholics"? The last number of years for sure he implies they are scattered, not gathered.

I'm assuming in the sentence I underlined you meant to say plain Catholics, not plain Amish?

[eccentric_rambler]

I suppose Robert could try to compare IP addresses of posters to see if Max is really Josh's alter ego. Or perhaps we could come up with the conspiracy theory that since Robert has not publicly denied being Max, he is Max.

All in good fun, and no, I am not posting as Max.

[Sudsy]

It’s not mocking to question someone who keeps making conflicting claims on a forum. The most obvious is MaxPC keeps claiming to be various ages that don’t line up with the calendar year. It goes to credibility; if he can’t keep that straight, should we take everything else he says at face value?

The mocking I'm speaking about is the way I read some of the responses to what some see as conflicting claims. Questioning is one thing but making sport of someone and their ways is quite another, imo. I think we should try hard to avoid that, self included.

He claims Plain Catholics have continuously existed for 100 years and that they are scattered around the globe, yet offers zero evidence any of this is the case. He expects us to just take him at his word. The problem is, his word isn’t very reliable.

Josh, imo, you also make all kinds of claims with unsupported proof on things and should we take all these at your word or demand some proof ? Perhaps others view your claims as stated to be not very reliable. I suppose we could press you wherever we see this happening or we could just conclude that this is the way you chose to present to others what you believe is true and just let it go.

Or I see nothing wrong with asking for supporting data to a claim but whether it is given or whether we don't agree with the supporting data, we can say so without further pressing or suggesting that person is telling lies. Some things may not have proof to satisfy us but it may also be true that these things still are facts and we should allow for that possibility, imo.

I hope we don't get into requiring proof that satisfies us for any statement someone makes here and if it heads in that direction I will move on.

[Verity]

Good post, but I’m not sure what that has to do with the question “Do Plain Catholics exist?”

Does it matter if they exist or not? What does matter is that Max exists. Whoever and whatever he is in real life, he has a never dying soul just like you.

For a Jew, Jesus had a uniquely effective way of showing his concern- how about we give his approach a try?

[Josh]

Political debates, discussions etc are one thing.

But let’s say I claimed to be a member of the Joshite Mennonites who are founded in Australia but have members around the globe. They practice Joshism, which includes a few common practices like keeping shaggy haired cattle, posting prolifically on Internet forums, and attending obscure philosophical conferences. I then reference a website, “http://joshites.example/“, which has pictures obviously copied from a Scottish Highlands enthusiast’s website.

I maintain these claims for decades, making it core to my identity. Eventually, a Mennonite pastor is interested in making contact as some of his parishioners are interested in shaggy cattle and also love posting on Internet forums. I then come up with an excuse of “It’s not allowed for one pastor to talk to another pastor’s parishioners.”

And I always refer to myself as “we”, such as: “We are preparing for the upcoming winter season by making sure our cattle get as shaggy as possible.” In arguments in Internet forums, I’m always “we”. “We will be at an upcoming Master Philospher’s Debate Club conference.”

Eventually some obvious factual errors appear and when questioned on these i use an excuse like my age or something meaning my memory is starting to fail.

I believe I would be questioned, a lot, if I claimed Joshite Mennonites exist.

[Josh]

Good post, but I’m not sure what that has to do with the question “Do Plain Catholics exist?”

Does it matter if they exist or not? What does matter is that Max exists. Whoever and whatever he is in real life, he has a never dying soul just like you.

For a Jew, Jesus had a uniquely effective way of showing his concern- how about we give his approach a try?

Sure, but that’s not the topic of this thread. And this isn’t really about Max, personally. It’s about claims that Plain Catholicism is as he has described it.

[Verity]

Good post, but I’m not sure what that has to do with the question “Do Plain Catholics exist?”

Does it matter if they exist or not? What does matter is that Max exists. Whoever and whatever he is in real life, he has a never dying soul just like you.

For a Jew, Jesus had a uniquely effective way of showing his concern- how about we give his approach a try?

Sure, but that’s not the topic of this thread.

Point taken. Pardon the diversion.

[Bootstrap]

For a Jew, Jesus had a uniquely effective way of showing his concern- how about we give his approach a try?

For Jews who claimed to be religious authorities, what was his approach? How did Jesus approach untruths?

Or are you saying we should think of Max more like the Samaritan woman? Even for her, Jesus was quite clear when he answered her questions, and he did not put up with her untruths.

I do think we should be kind. But I don't think that requires us to be gullible.

[Sudsy]

Good post, but I’m not sure what that has to do with the question “Do Plain Catholics exist?”

Does it matter if they exist or not? What does matter is that Max exists. Whoever and whatever he is in real life, he has a never dying soul just like you.

For a Jew, Jesus had a uniquely effective way of showing his concern- how about we give his approach a try?

Sure, but that’s not the topic of this thread. And this isn’t really about Max, personally. It’s about claims that Plain Catholicism is as he has described it.

So, if no further statements are made with regard to Plain Catholicism here by anyone supporting their existence are you willing to drop seeking some form of repentance (if that is what you are seeking) and let it go or are you just going to keep digging in your heels to prove you are right and they are lieing ? What do you want from anyone claiming that Plain Catholisim exists ?

[Josh]

So, if no further statements are made with regard to Plain Catholicism here by anyone supporting their existence are you willing to drop seeking some form of repentance (if that is what you are seeking) and let it go or are you just going to keep digging in your heels to prove you are right and they are lieing ? What do you want from anyone claiming that Plain Catholisim exists ?

I’m not seeking repentance or calling someone a liar. I am simply seeking an open dialogue about whether certain claims are actually factual.

There is no “digging in my heels” here. If the claims stop being made about “Plain Catholics,” there won’t be anything left to discuss. If claims continue to be made, then I and others may ask from time to time and challenge things we don’t think are factual.