What happens when we die? Is there an intermediate state?

[R7ehr]

Does one immediately enter their eternal state?
Is there any difference between people who died under the old covenant and new covenant?
How does 1 Peter 3:18-20 & 1 Peter 4:6, Ephesians 4:8-10, and Acts 2:27 factor into the matter?
What about Luke 23:42-42?
What about Luke 16:19-26?

[JohnL]

Does one immediately enter their eternal state?
Is there any difference between people who died under the old covenant and new covenant?
How does 1 Peter 3:18-20 & 1 Peter 4:6, Ephesians 4:8-10, and Acts 2:27 factor into the matter?
What about Luke 23:42-42?
What about Luke 16:19-26?

Honestly I figure I’ll find out approximately 1 second after I breathe out my last breath. About the same amount of time for my tummy gas from my last meal to escape.
I’ve seen and heard folks argue those same Bible verses 9 different ways to Sunday so I really can’t be sure until God either tells me or flops the script in front me like I’m his dullest student. I know God is pretty patient.

[JimFoxvog]

I expect, although the Bible uses the word "sleep", we will all "wake up" together at the resurrection, with no time passing for us, however long ago our death was in this world.

But I'll leave it up to God to do what he knows is best.

[JohnH]

I don't know. All I know is that we are promised a resurrection.

I can find comfort in church teachings and traditions on this issue.

[R7ehr]

I don't know. All I know is that we are promised a resurrection.

I can find comfort in church teachings and traditions on this issue.

What are your church teachings and traditions on this?

[MattY]

Does one immediately enter their eternal state?
Is there any difference between people who died under the old covenant and new covenant?
How does 1 Peter 3:18-20 & 1 Peter 4:6, Ephesians 4:8-10, and Acts 2:27 factor into the matter?
What about Luke 23:42-42?
What about Luke 16:19-26?

Is there an intermediate state? Yes, strong yes. The error of "soul sleep" - no intermediate time of conscious bliss and fellowship with Christ and each other between now and the resurrection - seems like a bigger error than annihilationism to me.

Does one immediately enter the eternal state? No, the eternal state is only after the Resurrection with our new eternal bodies. Believers in the intermediate state are given white robes - that is, honor in God's presence - between now and then (Rev. 6:9-11).

Regarding people who died under the old covenant vs. new covenant, no, I don't see much reason to think there is a difference in their intermediate state.

Acts 2:27 doesn't really come into play in my opinion because it's a prophecy of the resurrection, that Christ's soul would not remain in Hades (Peter contrasts that with David who remains dead and buried and in the realm of the dead), but it doesn't really comment on the nature of Hades at all except that the souls of the dead go there, by implication.

Eph. 4:8-10 - No, not really. We have a verse that's quite difficult to translate and interpret in vs. 8, but in context, it seems to be saying poetically that Christ triumphed over captivity (or over the things that held us in captivity) and distributed gifts to His people when He ascended to heaven; Paul is quoting a Psalm and interpreting it to be speaking of the Ascension. Then in verse 9 he briefly defends his interpretation by noting that the reference to the Ascension implies the Incarnation. There must first be a descent to the lower parts, the earth, in order for there to subsequently be an Ascension. Therefore Christ coming down to earth was prophesied in the Psalm by implication.

1 Peter 4:6 - Perhaps. It's hard to tell if Peter's point is about future reward for the faithful at the judgement (see vs 5) or their current reward of bliss in God's presence in the intermediate state - either way, his readers are urged to remain faithful as a result. At any rate, the gospel was preached to those who are NOW dead - not to people who were already dead when the gospel was preached to them. They were mistreated (judged in the flesh) but they remained faithful; so too should living believers. Peter is making a very pastoral point to his readers.

1 Peter 3:18-20 - Again, Peter is making a very pastoral point here. This passage has been often misunderstood since ancient times; a particular interpretation of it has been so embedded in tradition that people often encounter the tradition before they encounter the interpretation of this passage. "He descended into hell", i.e. Hades, according to the Apostles Creed. Yes He did - to the realm of the faithful dead, that is; not to the side of unbelievers' torment. But that is not what this is talking about. Peter is not making some abstract theological statement about what happened during a Saturday descent into hell. He is writing to persecuted believers. Noah, too, was mocked and rejected long ago, for many years while he was building the ark. Christ preached to them through His Spirit which was in Noah, the preacher of righteousness (see 2 Peter 2:5 and 1 Peter 1: 10-11; this theme and framework for thinking about the Spirit in the Old Testament saints runs through his epistles). The people who heard Him then rejected Him and are the spirits now in prison awaiting judgement. But the ark brought the faithful believers through the judgement that came upon that world. They were delivered through water. And so are we saved through the resurrection of Christ, symbolized by the water of baptism - not that the water does anything in itself, but Christ is our ark. We are in the ark. And He will bring us safely through to His heavenly kingdom.

[JohnH]

I don't know. All I know is that we are promised a resurrection.

I can find comfort in church teachings and traditions on this issue.

What are your church teachings and traditions on this?

Basically just the Anabaptist confessions on the issue.

Finally, concerning the resurrection of the dead, we confess with the mouth, and believe with the heart, according to Scripture, that in the last day all men who shall have died, and fallen asleep, shall be awaked and quickened, and shall rise again, through the incomprehensible power of God; and that they, together with those who then will still be alive, and who shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trump, shall be placed before the judgment seat of Christ, and the good be separated from the wicked; that then everyone shall receive in his own body according to that he hath done, whether it be good or evil; and that the good or pious, as the blessed, shall be taken up with Christ, and shall enter into life eternal, and obtain that joy, which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, to reign and triumph with Christ forever and ever.

Holdemans generally also hold to the Twisk confession, which has this to say:

That, in the beginning, man was created immortal, but that through the envy of the devil and the sin of our first parents, death came into the world. And, as through the sin of Adam all men became sinful in him, so also through him, all men became subject to; bodily death; so that in consequence thereof it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; seeing this sinful, corruptible flesh and blood cannot inherit the eternal, incorruptible kingdom, but must be renewed and glorified through death and the resurrection, by the power of God.

And, even as, when a man falls into a deep sleep, his heart, soul or spirit does not entirely sleep, as the body; so also the spirit or soul of man does not die or fall asleep with the body, but is and remains an immortal spirit. Hence temporal death, in the Scriptures, is called a sleep, and the resurrection of the dead an awakening from this sleep of death.

And as a sleeping man cannot receive and enjoy any good gifts, either according to the soul or the body, much less any punishment, pain and torment, unless he be previously awakened from his sleep; so also, believers cannot receive the perfect heavenly existence, nor unbelievers the eternal death or the pain of hell, either in the soul or in the body, except they have first been awakened from the sleep of death, and have arisen, through the. coming of Christ.

Until this last day of judgment the souls of believers are waiting in the hands of God, under the altar of Christ, to receive then in their souls and bodies, the rewards promised them. So also the souls of unbelievers are reserved to be punished, after the day of judgment, in their souls and bodies.

And as through the sin and transgression of Adam death came upon all men; so also the resurrection of the dead came upon all men through the Savior Jesus Christ; so that, as in the springtime the sun, through his glorious radiance and brightness, draws forth all sweet scented herbs from the earth, as well as thistles and thorns, which are rejected and reserved for the fire; so also, shall Christ Jesus, the true Son of righteousness, in this great last day and hour, through His glorious coming and appearing in the clouds of heaven, draw forth from the earth, and cause to arise all men, the wicked and the pious; so that this great God, through His power and commanding voice, by which He spoke in the beginning: Let heaven and earth be made; and His word was immediately a perfect work; and who created all visible things from that which was invisible, and made man of the dust of the ground; this same God shall, through His unchangeable power and almighty word, in the last day, call all men who have been changed into dust and earth, and have been consumed by fire, birds, and fishes, from the dust, and cause each to arise with his own body, flesh, and bones, with which they have served either their Creator or sin.

And, as a woman in travail, when her hour is come, cannot retain, but makes haste to deliver the fruit of her womb, so also shall in this last hour, death, earth, or hell. and sea make haste to deliver up the great number of the dead which in them have become dust and ashes, and passed away. These shall all arise, with their own bodies, incorruptible, which shall again be united with the soul and spirit, which through death had been separated from the. body; and had remained immortal. At that time the pious shall be glorified and changed from the mortal and corruptible into the immortal and incorruptible, from the weak and frail, into the strong and glorious, being made like unto the angels, of God, and the glorious body of Christ. Thus shall, also those who shall live and remain at this sudden second coming of Christ from the heaven, be changed and glorified after the image of Christ.

Of the first or temporal death, which came by the first transgression, read: "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:19; 25:33).

A reading of this would imply "soul sleep", but I think if you asked the average Mennonite or Holdeman Mennonite, they would probably express the generic evangelical view that when people die they go straight up to heaven and are just sort of hanging around up there and don't give a lot of thought to the future resurrection.

Overall, a doctrine about the intermediate state is not terribly important to Mennonites (or at least more conservative ones that have not adopted too much fundamentalism) and I can't think of anyone ever really talking about it much.

[barnhart]

For those who feel strongly about soul sleep, does John's account of souls of the martyrs crying out from under the altar in the presence God form your understanding?

[joshuabgood]

It's a mystery. No one really knows.

[Ernie]

Does one immediately enter their eternal state?
Is there any difference between people who died under the old covenant and new covenant?
How does 1 Peter 3:18-20 & 1 Peter 4:6, Ephesians 4:8-10, and Acts 2:27 factor into the matter?
What about Luke 23:42-42?
What about Luke 16:19-26?

Is there an intermediate state? Yes, strong yes. The error of "soul sleep" - no intermediate time of conscious bliss and fellowship with Christ and each other between now and the resurrection - seems like a bigger error than annihilationism to me.

Does one immediately enter the eternal state? No, the eternal state is only after the Resurrection with our new eternal bodies. Believers in the intermediate state are given white robes - that is, honor in God's presence - between now and then (Rev. 6:9-11).

Regarding people who died under the old covenant vs. new covenant, no, I don't see much reason to think there is a difference in their intermediate state.

Acts 2:27 doesn't really come into play in my opinion because it's a prophecy of the resurrection, that Christ's soul would not remain in Hades (Peter contrasts that with David who remains dead and buried and in the realm of the dead), but it doesn't really comment on the nature of Hades at all except that the souls of the dead go there, by implication.

Eph. 4:8-10 - No, not really. We have a verse that's quite difficult to translate and interpret in vs. 8, but in context, it seems to be saying poetically that Christ triumphed over captivity (or over the things that held us in captivity) and distributed gifts to His people when He ascended to heaven; Paul is quoting a Psalm and interpreting it to be speaking of the Ascension. Then in verse 9 he briefly defends his interpretation by noting that the reference to the Ascension implies the Incarnation. There must first be a descent to the lower parts, the earth, in order for there to subsequently be an Ascension. Therefore Christ coming down to earth was prophesied in the Psalm by implication.

1 Peter 4:6 - Perhaps. It's hard to tell if Peter's point is about future reward for the faithful at the judgement (see vs 5) or their current reward of bliss in God's presence in the intermediate state - either way, his readers are urged to remain faithful as a result. At any rate, the gospel was preached to those who are NOW dead - not to people who were already dead when the gospel was preached to them. They were mistreated (judged in the flesh) but they remained faithful; so too should living believers. Peter is making a very pastoral point to his readers.

1 Peter 3:18-20 - Again, Peter is making a very pastoral point here. This passage has been often misunderstood since ancient times; a particular interpretation of it has been so embedded in tradition that people often encounter the tradition before they encounter the interpretation of this passage. "He descended into hell", i.e. Hades, according to the Apostles Creed. Yes He did - to the realm of the faithful dead, that is; not to the side of unbelievers' torment. But that is not what this is talking about. Peter is not making some abstract theological statement about what happened during a Saturday descent into hell. He is writing to persecuted believers. Noah, too, was mocked and rejected long ago, for many years while he was building the ark. Christ preached to them through His Spirit which was in Noah, the preacher of righteousness (see 2 Peter 2:5 and 1 Peter 1: 10-11; this theme and framework for thinking about the Spirit in the Old Testament saints runs through his epistles). The people who heard Him then rejected Him and are the spirits now in prison awaiting judgement. But the ark brought the faithful believers through the judgement that came upon that world. They were delivered through water. And so are we saved through the resurrection of Christ, symbolized by the water of baptism - not that the water does anything in itself, but Christ is our ark. We are in the ark. And He will bring us safely through to His heavenly kingdom.

And awful lot of deductions and assumptions going on here...

I have no problem with people speculating about these things, but I think that stating deductions and assumptions as fact is very problematic. I think this is why there are 10K plus denominations/theology packages. The reaction to this is moving many people towards Orthodoxy and Catholocism. Those traditions make deductions and assumptions also but church authority and tradition have given them a stability that is lacking in settings where anyone can declare their "truth".

Sorry. I'm intending to do a series of talks on this later this year and you got me going.