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Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:16 pm**

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:06 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 10:43 am In the Charlie Kirk thread, politicized religion is the main topic, so it's hard to keep politics out of it completely, but we can let faith judge politics and avoid judging each other so that there's room to discuss the topic.
Where in the NT does it indicate that faith is supposed to judge politics? To me this premise is flawed.

A good topic on its own. Scripture does not give us a direct "faith vs. politics" guideline, so we should tread carefully.

I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 6, and I think it gives us some relevant guidelines. Just as we are not to bring our disputes to secular courts for judgement, we should not be using partisan political approaches to judge things and divide the Kingdom. In the end times, at least, God's people will judge the world. There's a tension between this and the call to not judge that you see in my signature, but I do think we are called at least to discern what is good and right and what is not, especially in areas where people are calling for our loyalty and devotion.

1 Corinthians 6:

6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:30 pm**

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:16 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:06 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 10:43 am In the Charlie Kirk thread, politicized religion is the main topic, so it's hard to keep politics out of it completely, but we can let faith judge politics and avoid judging each other so that there's room to discuss the topic.
Where in the NT does it indicate that faith is supposed to judge politics? To me this premise is flawed.
A good topic on its own. Scripture does not give us a direct "faith vs. politics" guideline, so we should tread carefully.

I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 6, and I think it gives us some relevant guidelines. Just as we are not to bring our disputes to secular courts for judgement, we should not be using partisan political approaches to judge things and divide the Kingdom. In the end times, at least, God's people will judge the world. There's a tension between this and the call to not judge that you see in my signature, but I do think we are called at least to discern what is good and right and what is not, especially in areas where people are calling for our loyalty and devotion.

1 Corinthians 6:

6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

All of this points to a clear distinction between the world and Christ's Kingdom. I believe that all politics is of the world and to participate in it is itself worldly.

What I hear being suggested is that there is a right and wrong way to participate in politics and that faith can show us what is the right or wrong way. The NT always calls us to forsake worldliness and never shows us the right way to be worldly.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:00 pm**

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:30 pmAll of this points to a clear distinction between the world and Christ's Kingdom. I believe that all politics is of the world and to participate in it is itself worldly.

What I hear being suggested is that there is a right and wrong way to participate in politics and that faith can show us what is the right or wrong way. The NT always calls us to forsake worldliness and never shows us the right way to be worldly.

I don’t think my post was suggesting that there’s a right way and a wrong way to be political. I was trying to think about how faith helps us discern what is good and right when the world makes claims on our loyalty and devotion.

Part of the difficulty here is that “the world” isn’t always used in exactly the same way in the NT. Sometimes it clearly means the realm opposed to God, but other times it just means the created order or the nations. That makes the “clear distinction” feel less clear to me.

And with “politics,” that’s not really a category the NT uses at all. When Paul talks in Romans 13 about governing authorities, he actually calls them God’s servants. That suggests politics is one of the ways God orders the world, even though it is also twisted by sin and idolatry. And we definitely live in that world, subject to these authorities.

To me, that raises questions like these:

1. How do we live faithfully in a system God has ordained but that is also very much part of “the world” in more than one sense?
2. What exactly do we mean by "participating in politics" when we use that phrase? I think people mean very different things.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:02 pm**

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:30 pm All of this points to a clear distinction between the world and Christ's Kingdom. I believe that all politics is of the world and to participate in it is itself worldly.

What I hear being suggested is that there is a right and wrong way to participate in politics and that faith can show us what is the right or wrong way. The NT always calls us to forsake worldliness and never shows us the right way to be worldly.

i think so.

what i’ve observed in my life is, many lib Christians, MCUSA, PCUSA, Methodists, Universalists, etc., feel completely at ease with (leftist) politics, no separation, at all, yet are hypersensitive to (conservative) politics. so at ease, it goes unnoticed. if noticed, it’s justified by WWJD? etc.

when you’ve been born into a politically lib-dominate family, church, community, schools, country, when you see nothing else,
when you marry it, work with it, it’s easy to be oblivious, even if the literal majority world believes otherwise.

esp if the literal majority is essentially unorganized and quiet. easy to ignore, dismiss.

(this is my preferred unorganized group, i think it best reflects Jesus’ way, and, also, the Constitution.)
Nothing in either suggests organized blocs+lobbies should rule. No career politicians, either. Human constructs.

the same would be true if politically conservative-dominated. it hasn’t been that way in the overall U.S. for decades, at least.
there is no inherent difference. at any given time, one is likely to dominate.

pendulums swing.
when earthly regimes do not allow for peaceful swings, eventually, chaos. life on earth.

GaryK:
The NT always calls us to forsake worldliness and never shows us the right way to be worldly.

i think so.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:06 pm**

If you are a Kingdom Christian, it is an unavoidable reality that the gospel is, at it's very core, a political message.

This is both (1) a reason to avoid worldly political parties and secular power, and (2) a reason that Christian can never refrain from their political witness.

To say that all "politics" is worldly and is seperate from faith is to adopt the feeble Evangelical model of Christianity, where we say a sinner's prayer and then show up to church every Sunday. If we ar Kingdom Christians, then we base all our choices (how we dress, how/who we interact with, what work and hobbies we take on, etc.) on the central fact of our existence: the VERY political statement that Jesus is Lord.

Repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:15 pm**

Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:06 pm If you are a Kingdom Christian, it is an unavoidable reality that the gospel is, at it's very core, a political message.

This is both (1) a reason to avoid worldly political parties and secular power, and (2) a reason that Christian can never refrain from their political witness.

To say that all "politics" is worldly and is seperate from faith is to adopt the feeble Evangelical model of Christianity, where we say a sinner's prayer and then show up to church every Sunday. If we ar Kingdom Christians, then we base all our choices (how we dress, how/who we interact with, what work and hobbies we take on, etc.) on the central fact of our existence: the VERY political statement that Jesus is Lord.

Repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

I started editing my post to clarify what I meant by "all" politics but thought the context of the conversation was clear enough that it wasn't necessary.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:22 pm**

temporal1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:02 pm what i’ve observed in my life is, many lib Christians, MCUSA, PCUSA, Methodists, Universalists, etc., feel completely at ease with (leftist) politics, no separation, at all, yet are hypersensitive to (conservative) politics. so at ease, it goes unnoticed. if noticed, it’s justified by WWJD? etc.

It really does work both ways. Many conservative Christians (Baptist, charismatic, pentecostal, non-denominational, usw) feel completely at ease with conservative politics, no separation at all, yet are hypersensitive to liberal politics. So at ease it cannot be unnoticed; it becomes part of their identity. It's justified, but rarely by WWJD.

Can we be detached enough from both conservative and liberal politics to be Separated Unto God? As P+T notes, this is a political statement, but measured on a different axis than the world uses.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:36 pm**

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:00 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:30 pmAll of this points to a clear distinction between the world and Christ's Kingdom. I believe that all politics is of the world and to participate in it is itself worldly.

What I hear being suggested is that there is a right and wrong way to participate in politics and that faith can show us what is the right or wrong way. The NT always calls us to forsake worldliness and never shows us the right way to be worldly.
I don’t think my post was suggesting that there’s a right way and a wrong way to be political. I was trying to think about how faith helps us discern what is good and right when the world makes claims on our loyalty and devotion.

The topic under discussion is faith judging politics.

I hear you acknowledging that politics in the context we are discussing it is worldly by saying "when the world makes claims on our loyalty and devotion". Worldly politics asks for one's loyalty to and support for a particular way of governing and when we help put such earthly powers in place, we show our support for a worldly system of power.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:39 pm**

ohio jones wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:22 pm
temporal1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 1:02 pm what i’ve observed in my life is, many lib Christians, MCUSA, PCUSA, Methodists, Universalists, etc., feel completely at ease with (leftist) politics, no separation, at all, yet are hypersensitive to (conservative) politics. so at ease, it goes unnoticed. if noticed, it’s justified by WWJD? etc.
It really does work both ways. Many conservative Christians (Baptist, charismatic, pentecostal, non-denominational, usw) feel completely at ease with conservative politics, no separation at all, yet are hypersensitive to liberal politics. So at ease it cannot be unnoticed; it becomes part of their identity. It's justified, but rarely by WWJD.

Can we be detached enough from both conservative and liberal politics to be Separated Unto God? As P+T notes, this is a political statement, but measured on a different axis than the world uses.

i wrote above:
there is no inherent difference. at any given time, one is likely to dominate.

^^ i feel i’ve repeated this numerous times over years. i believe it.

presently, as now documented with stats in education, msm, many corporations, etc., libs have increasingly dominated for decades. presently in the 90+ percentiles. it’s not close. Moral equivalency is important, with recognition of tangible reality.

i was about my grdaughter’s age when “the earlier” pendulum swing happened, libs over conservatives.
thankfully, my wise father alerted, “just wait” - one day this will all swing in reverse, after (the hippies) turn out to be more intolerant than before. i listened, in disbelief. “how could this be?!” time has proven his warning. in abundance.

so now, the pendulum swings again.

i’m still digesting P+T’s words. but, certainly, Jesus is both separate+above. this is The Hope He offers. to all.
which bugs the heck out of kings. they can’t bear it.

Posted: **Thu Oct 09, 2025 3:08 pm**

I suspect the word "judge" is being used more than one way in the scriptures. For example in the biblical period of the judges there was no formal power structure to ordain them, they were those whose wisdom, moral uprightness and capacity led people to turn to them for leadership in times of crisis.

In the Corinthians passage it could be used in the sense that the existence of a moral person reveals or highlights the perversity around them. I have experienced situations like this when people around me were upset because I carried on doing what was right and the result was they looked bad. The existence of God's people living the values of the kingdom in a crooked world will stand as a judgement on the rest.

I wonder if some of the judging of the world will simply be standing as a witness to the truth by living it.

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