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The Church as Culture

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 2:03 pm
by HondurasKeiser
I have been teaching a 2-part series on Romans 12; specifically verse 2"Be not conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds." Interestingly this piece in Mere Orthodoxy came across my transom this morning and I find it dovetails nicely with what I've bene ruminating on these past few weeks.

Mennonites and most Anabaptists have often been shoe-horned, without their consent into Niebuhr's "Christ against Culture" typology: "...a theological viewpoint that emphasizes the fundamental opposition between Christian faith and the surrounding secular culture. It suggests that cultural values and practices are inherently corrupt and incompatible with Christian beliefs, leading to a need for Christians to withdraw from or reject the dominant culture."
or:
"This is the classic “sect” type: Anabaptists and other radicals who reject natural law and the duties of governing in order to adhere to the letter of Christ’s commands, above all the Sermon on the Mount."

There's much in this typology that I resonate with and perhaps accurately describes much though not all of the Anabaptist world. Nevertheless, I've often felt as though there was much that was left wanting with this description. Put another way, complete separation from the world for those of us that don't live in farming communities or on a commune is not how we experience life. How then to truly live out Romans 12:2? Reading through the rest of the piece, this quote from the late Lutheran theologian, Robert Jensen, jumped out at me:
So what, if anything, should the Church do about the state of Western culture? To deal cogently with that question, we must avoid an error that has confused much of the discussion. The question about “Christ and Culture,” as if Christ were one sort of reality and culture simply another, has generated much admirable thought but is nevertheless a category mistake. For the Church is herself manifestly a culture, and according to the New Testament the Church is the embodiment of Christ. The question then should be about “Christ and Other Cultures.”

Christ embodied as his Church does not swim in a homogeneous sea of “culture.” Rather, the Church makes a way through history between Pentecost and the End, encountering other cultures as she goes. Each newly encountered culture already has its own morale and worship, and given that the world is at once the good creature of the one God and fallen into evil, the encounter between the Church and any culture will be both appreciative and polemical. The Church will find practices and ideas she can adopt and transform for her own, and others which she must combat. Neither the Church nor the other culture will ever be the same.[2]
I like it, and it too resonates with me. I think some of JBG's thought comes close to echoing this idea but then it's quickly batted down in 4 rejoinders. Here's #3:
...it is a proposal by and for the upper-middle class. Almost without exception, the examples of faithful presence adduced by Hunter belong to professions and careers filled exclusively by the college-educated and sometimes only by bona fide elites. He refers approvingly to “business … policy and law … inquiry, scholarship, and learning … art [and] music.” He calls for civic leadership, entrepreneurialism, founding institutions, and joining or contributing to the highest levels of cultural production and influence. All this, in service to and funded by a Reformed theology of work that sees labor of whatever kind as an ennobling participation in the creative work of God. Though he seeks to head off the following criticism, it is difficult to see most working people’s jobs in this account.
The rest of the piece goes onto advocate for what could best be summarized as "taking the best of each of Niebuhr's typologies". I'm genuinely curious about thoughts on this piece and Romans 12 more generally.

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 3:11 pm
by ohio jones


This may be of interest on the subject from the RNOC conference several weeks ago. Unedited audio :roll: so skip the first 6 minutes or so. He starts discussing Niebuhr around 48:30 (after discussing the historic framework) and at 56:00 gets into his own conclusions. The transcript is helpful.

Not sure when the plenary sessions will be posted here (currently "coming soon") but they cover the entire chapter.

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 3:49 pm
by HondurasKeiser
ohio jones wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 3:11 pm

This may be of interest on the subject from the RNOC conference several weeks ago. Unedited audio :roll: so skip the first 6 minutes or so. He starts discussing Niebuhr around 48:30 (after discussing the historic framework) and at 56:00 gets into his own conclusions. The transcript is helpful.

Not sure when the plenary sessions will be posted here (currently "coming soon") but they cover the entire chapter.
Did Franconia Mennonite join Rosedale?

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 4:11 pm
by ohio jones
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 3:49 pm Did Franconia Mennonite join Rosedale?
No; they've left Mosaic and are currently independent. We often have speakers who are not affiliated with us (JBG being an example from last year).

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2025 4:25 pm
by HondurasKeiser
ohio jones wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 3:11 pm

This may be of interest on the subject from the RNOC conference several weeks ago. Unedited audio :roll: so skip the first 6 minutes or so. He starts discussing Niebuhr around 48:30 (after discussing the historic framework) and at 56:00 gets into his own conclusions. The transcript is helpful.

Not sure when the plenary sessions will be posted here (currently "coming soon") but they cover the entire chapter.
This is wonderful...thank you and yes, I hope they publish the plenary sessions.

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 6:58 am
by barnhart
One weakness I see in the two Niebuhr typologies summarized above is both seem reactionary, or operating as a response to culture rather than the result of a firm conviction about Jesus. He may be accurately summarizing Anabaptists as we are, but not as we should be.

HK, what elements do you see missing from Niebuhr?

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 9:38 am
by Praxis+Theodicy
Coming from evangelical baptists, my instincts pull me towards Christian cultural engagement. "We need more Christian singers/actors/teachers/politicians/etc." is the sentiment there, and although I strongly disagree with that now, my instincts still latch on to SOMEthing in there which is different from the instincts of generational anabaptists.

Something I desire more was encapsulated in that quote:
"the encounter between the Church and any culture will be both appreciative and polemical."
I like this. I feel that I bring a lot of "appreciative" to my encounters with other culture, but overwhelmingly my brothers and sisters bring "polemical" to the table. I loved not only engaging in, but thinking about writing about, studying, and overall "deeply appreciating" a lot of things that most conservative anabaptist churches would dismiss as "worldly": movies, books, television, and especially video games.

I feel this way especially in any creative field; less so in fields of governance, politics, etc. I think the Kingdom is essentially a political reality, and we ought not to let other ideas of politics influence our idea of the Kingdom too much. But even there, I have appreciation for some traditions of political ideology. I had a long discussion with someone who had a lot of interest and questions about Kingdom Christianity because he was an anarchist, and I wouldn't have been able to engage with him as deeply if I wasn't an anarchist myself.

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:06 am
by barnhart
I have significant overlap with some secular anarchists as well because we shared a position of disconnection from federal authority.

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 11:58 am
by Ernie
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 9:38 am I like this. I feel that I bring a lot of "appreciative" to my encounters with other culture, but overwhelmingly my brothers and sisters bring "polemical" to the table. I loved not only engaging in, but thinking about writing about, studying, and overall "deeply appreciating" a lot of things that most conservative anabaptist churches would dismiss as "worldly": movies, books, television, and especially video games.
What brothers and sisters are you referring to?

And what is your feeling now about the things that conservative Anabaptists dismiss?

Re: The Church as Culture

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 1:50 pm
by Praxis+Theodicy
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 11:58 am
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 15, 2025 9:38 am I like this. I feel that I bring a lot of "appreciative" to my encounters with other culture, but overwhelmingly my brothers and sisters bring "polemical" to the table. I loved not only engaging in, but thinking about writing about, studying, and overall "deeply appreciating" a lot of things that most conservative anabaptist churches would dismiss as "worldly": movies, books, television, and especially video games.
What brothers and sisters are you referring to?
The most immediate brothers and sisters in my local church; but this is largely true of the wider conservative anabaptist movement. There are specific constituencies (ADC, BMA) that are, by most measures, conservative, but many people disagree that they are because they don't have firm, sweeping bans on all media like television or radio.
And what is your feeling now about the things that conservative Anabaptists dismiss?
I appreciate the understanding that any media has the capacity (sometimes the intention) of influencing its audience. Whenever bans on TV/radio/etc. were argued to me in the past, it was with sweeping generalized labels like "worldly" or "sinful". I've learned to appreciate from my own experiences (and language at least one brother used with me) that "influence" is something Christians need to be constantly aware of.
I appreciate the ban on media in my own community because (1) I'm not missing anything I needed anyway, (2) I appreciate the discipline of guarding myself and my family's influences, and (3) i like being a part of a community that allows itself to be influenced by the same things... if we aren't constantly watching TV/etc. in our private homes, our influences will be (mostly) each other - through the gathering and grown of our local church body.
But I do somewhat mourn the fact that everyone in my life has an extremely shallow view of most human creative expression. Even books are judged and valued on a very surface-level understanding.