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What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 5:12 pm
by JohnL
JayP wrote: ↑Fri Jul 04, 2025 4:37 pm
But I asked because I remember him having a big 8nfluence in a LOT of Anabaptist folks.
I do remember the Charity and Charity type churches were very influenced by his teach8ngs. I really do not get how folks take something like his Umbrella of Authority thing and run with it as though Jesus included it in the sermon on the mount.
This mention reminded me to ask. I'd run across the CCF tapes about 20 years ago.
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 7:10 pm
by Donny D
What happened to the Charity Churches started by Mose Stoltzfus and Denny Kenaston? I guess the question is actually, “What is the current situation with the Charity churches?” I must admit that I’ve heard of some accounts that were disappointing. However, for the most part, I hear almost nothing.
Up until lately, I’ve been attempting to keep in contact with a few groups across the country, but it seems to me that some are seriously affected by the subtle pressures of liberalism and persistent doctrinal drifting. However, there are number of them seemingly attempting to fix the problems of the old Charity mentality of “Do it your own way.”
Within the last couple of years, there have been meetings intended to establish a firm footing for what is referred to as Agape Fellowships. I have seen things such as a general “Vision Statement” which seems to include historic early church examples. There is also an “Agape Polity” statement, and Confession of Faith.
When I ask participants of the Agape Fellowships just how they might identify themselves, they commonly respond with a single word: "Mennonite." I have visited three different congregations, and I must admit that they do seem to be in line with the general definition of conservative Mennonite I am accustomed to.
Overall, I would say that I am encouraged by the new Agape Fellowships attempting to walk a more biblical path.
With that said, I suppose there could be some fireworks of different opinions erupting here. After all, it is the 4th of July. (grin)
My post is for general information, only. Any battle of different opinions is of little interest to me. Thanks ahead of time!
Blessings to all.
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:06 pm
by Praxis+Theodicy
I've been in the Agape circles a bit over the last couple years. The elder of the Agape church plant I've been attending directed me to a sermon by Roger Hertzler about the vision for their church out in Oregon (which is not yet Agape-affiliated). That sermon included talk about building a common culture (doing things together) and leaning a bit towards set "rules" instead of the Charity model of "sharing concerns" (a model where there weren't any/many written standards, but people would "share concerns" with each other over dress or lifestyle). Hertzler also talked about "conservative" and defined it as "going back to before things started changing". I disagree on his definition of the word (he is describing "radical", not "conservative") but I agree with the value he is presenting.
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 11:30 pm
by JohnH
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:06 pm
I've been in the Agape circles a bit over the last couple years. The elder of the Agape church plant I've been attending directed me to a sermon by Roger Hertzler about the vision for their church out in Oregon (which is not yet Agape-affiliated). That sermon included talk about building a common culture (doing things together) and leaning a bit towards set "rules" instead of the Charity model of "sharing concerns" (a model where there weren't any/many written standards, but people would "share concerns" with each other over dress or lifestyle). Hertzler also talked about "conservative" and defined it as "going back to before things started changing". I disagree on his definition of the word (he is describing "radical", not "conservative") but I agree with the value he is presenting.
I wonder how far back one has to go to find “before things started changing”? Would this not simply mean a return to the Old Order, at the very least?
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 12:25 am
by R7ehr
JohnH wrote: ↑Fri Jul 04, 2025 11:30 pm
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:06 pm
I've been in the Agape circles a bit over the last couple years. The elder of the Agape church plant I've been attending directed me to a sermon by Roger Hertzler about the vision for their church out in Oregon (which is not yet Agape-affiliated). That sermon included talk about building a common culture (doing things together) and leaning a bit towards set "rules" instead of the Charity model of "sharing concerns" (a model where there weren't any/many written standards, but people would "share concerns" with each other over dress or lifestyle). Hertzler also talked about "conservative" and defined it as "going back to before things started changing". I disagree on his definition of the word (he is describing "radical", not "conservative") but I agree with the value he is presenting.
I wonder how far back one has to go to find “before things started changing”? Would this not simply mean a return to the Old Order, at the very least?
Perhaps the people in his audience understood exactly what he meant by “before things started to change”. No every recorded sermon is for a broader audience, and absent of local context.
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 5:20 am
by Praxis+Theodicy
And as far as CCF goes, they are still active. The tape ministry has recently folded, but they post messages to Youtube:
https://youtube.com/@charitychristianfe ... ure=shared
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 8:57 am
by JohnH
That's too bad. They could have reached an audience of 20-something hipsters looking for cassette tape recordings.
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 9:21 am
by JohnL
Is there a main website for the Agape Fellowships? Does it have a church locator?
Donny D wrote: ↑Fri Jul 04, 2025 7:10 pm
What happened to the Charity Churches started by Mose Stoltzfus and Denny Kenaston? I guess the question is actually, “What is the current situation with the Charity churches?” I must admit that I’ve heard of some accounts that were disappointing. However, for the most part, I hear almost nothing.
Up until lately, I’ve been attempting to keep in contact with a few groups across the country, but it seems to me that some are seriously affected by the subtle pressures of liberalism and persistent doctrinal drifting. However, there are number of them seemingly attempting to fix the problems of the old Charity mentality of “Do it your own way.”
Within the last couple of years, there have been meetings intended to establish a firm footing for what is referred to as Agape Fellowships. I have seen things such as a general “Vision Statement” which seems to include historic early church examples. There is also an “Agape Polity” statement, and Confession of Faith.
When I ask participants of the Agape Fellowships just how they might identify themselves, they commonly respond with a single word: "Mennonite." I have visited three different congregations, and I must admit that they do seem to be in line with the general definition of conservative Mennonite I am accustomed to.
Overall, I would say that I am encouraged by the new Agape Fellowships attempting to walk a more biblical path.
With that said, I suppose there could be some fireworks of different opinions erupting here. After all, it is the 4th of July. (grin)
My post is for general information, only. Any battle of different opinions is of little interest to me. Thanks ahead of time!
Blessings to all.
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 1:19 pm
by JohnH
Agape Fellowship is the “conservative” side of Charity, possibly even going so far as to have men wearing suspenders.
Some of this crowd was at AIC a few years ago. They were very eager to speak to Old Order type of people and recruit them for their church. My brother sports broad falls and suspenders on a typical day. One of the gentleman from such a church came over interested in hearing what church he was a part of, etc.
When they learned he was at a less conservative Mennonite church but he was interested in a more conservative church, the guy just walked away in the middle of the conversation.
Re: What is the current situation with Charity?
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 2:52 pm
by JayP
To characterize anything about church groups like Agape or Charity as more or less conservative is probably fruitless. Dress like suspenders or broad falls is significantly less meaningful IMHO hen you have sufficient numbers that come from NMB. They engage is a bit of dress up. When I moved in such circles as a member of Eastern, there were so many that made so many inaccurate assumptions about my beard. All were wrong. I simply had worn one for non religious reasons since I was 17.