MennoNet.com

Questions for practicing Anabaptists. For this thread no arguing or bashing or politics. Just how your particular group addresses this topic.

What do you feel are the most important points of the teachings regarding pride vs humility? Relevant Bible verses?

1. You can know if you are humble, regardless of the saying “if you think you are, that means you aren’t”. Act 20:19
2. You can actually humble yourself. James 4:10

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 10:48 am Questions for practicing Anabaptists. For this thread no arguing or bashing or politics. Just how your particular group addresses this topic.

What do you feel are the most important points of the teachings regarding pride vs humility? Relevant Bible verses?

R7ehr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:00 pm 1. You can know if you are humble, regardless of the saying “if you think you are, that means you aren’t”. Act 20:19
2. You can actually humble yourself. James 4:10

We teach the same.

We also teach that we should not be "image focused", trying to portray ourselves in an unrealistic manner, and omitting details about ourselves or our organizations that would put us in a negative light.
We also encourage servanthood vs. being "stars". We discourage referring to others as "stars" in the church or referring to some members as star members.
We encourage leaders to lead in servanthood primarily by example, not through top-down lordship leadership.

This is more so my own personal belief, not necessarily that of our congregation as a whole, or that of our leadership. (I suspect their viewpoint is more 'Amish', in that all 'pride and boasting' is bad.)

I think that all pride or boasting that involves comparing myself to anyone else is wrong. But Paul speaks of a 'boasting' that is a satisfaction in one's self that is based on recognizing personal improvement in being more like Christ. It isn't the idea that one has "arrived", or reached some sort of "sinless perfection", but a joyous response to having gained some ground in holiness. It is strictly based on comparing one's self with one's own self, without any element of measuring one's self against another person. Because this 'boasting' recognizes that it is the power of Christ with which I am struggling, it is actually boasting in the work of Christ in my life. The personal achievement is in my willingness to use my will to choose to allow the Spirit of God to do the work in me that He desires. (I'll have to look for the Scripture text, because it's getting late now.)

Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:48 pm

R7ehr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 7:00 pm 1. You can know if you are humble, regardless of the saying “if you think you are, that means you aren’t”. Act 20:19
2. You can actually humble yourself. James 4:10

We teach the same.

We also teach that we should not be "image focused", trying to portray ourselves in an unrealistic manner, and omitting details about ourselves or our organizations that would put us in a negative light.
We also encourage servanthood vs. being "stars". We discourage referring to others as "stars" in the church or referring to some members as star members.
We encourage leaders to lead in servanthood primarily by example, not through top-down lordship leadership.

I'm trying to think about how to translate this into definitions. What do you think of these:

Humility is recognizing your smallness and dependence before God, submitting yourself willingly to God's authority, and choosing to serve others rather than seeking to dominate or elevate yourself over them.

Pride is exalting yourself, rejecting your dependence on God, seeking to elevate yourself over others, and resisting God's authority.

What do these definitions get right? What do they miss?

It’s missing hatred of oneself.
Self loathing/self hating - humility - pride.

R7ehr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:45 pm It’s missing hatred of oneself.
Self loathing/self hating - humility - pride.

Do you have some verses that say that hating yourself or self-loathing is part of humility, or something Christians should live in generally? Not just temporary sorrow when repenting from serious sin, but as an ongoing part of the Christian life?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:59 pm

R7ehr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:45 pm It’s missing hatred of oneself.
Self loathing/self hating - humility - pride.

Do you have some verses that say that hating yourself or self-loathing is part of humility, or something Christians should live in generally? Not just temporary sorrow when repenting from serious sin, but as an ongoing part of the Christian life?

I think that if we are drawing a line from pride to humility, the line should continue through humility to self hate. Humility is a way of looking at ourself. So are pride and self hate. I think it is more accurate to consider self hate as the opposite of pride, not humility as the opposite of pride.
We should not think more highly of ourselves that we out to think, nor too lowly of ourselves than we out to think. We should think correctly, and humbly.

R7ehr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:31 pm

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:59 pm

R7ehr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:45 pm It’s missing hatred of oneself.
Self loathing/self hating - humility - pride.

Do you have some verses that say that hating yourself or self-loathing is part of humility, or something Christians should live in generally? Not just temporary sorrow when repenting from serious sin, but as an ongoing part of the Christian life?

I think that if we are drawing a line from pride to humility, the line should continue through humility to self hate. Humility is a way of looking at ourself. So are pride and self hate. I think it is more accurate to consider self hate as the opposite of pride, not humility as the opposite of pride.
We should not think more highly of ourselves that we out to think, nor too lowly of ourselves than we out to think. We should think correctly, and humbly.

I'm listening, but I would tend to see the scope as being self-focused, vs others-focused. (But I realize that both pride and self-hatred are self-focused, so it doesn't fit nicely on a line diagram.)

R7ehr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:31 pm

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:59 pm

R7ehr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:45 pm It’s missing hatred of oneself.
Self loathing/self hating - humility - pride.

Do you have some verses that say that hating yourself or self-loathing is part of humility, or something Christians should live in generally? Not just temporary sorrow when repenting from serious sin, but as an ongoing part of the Christian life?

I think that if we are drawing a line from pride to humility, the line should continue through humility to self hate. Humility is a way of looking at ourself. So are pride and self hate. I think it is more accurate to consider self hate as the opposite of pride, not humility as the opposite of pride.
We should not think more highly of ourselves that we out to think, nor too lowly of ourselves than we out to think. We should think correctly, and humbly.

I can't think of a Hebrew or Greek word that means self-loathing or self-hate. I'm inclined to think that humility means seeing ourselves as God sees us - small, dependent, valued, created, redeemed, and loved. His sheep, his little children. I don't think self-loathing is "even more humility".

Neto wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 8:24 pmI'm listening, but I would tend to see the scope as being self-focused, vs others-focused. (But I realize that both pride and self-hatred are self-focused, so it doesn't fit nicely on a line diagram.)

I agree.

Both pride and self-hatred put the self in the center. Humility says "it's not about you".