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This is a thread to discuss an Anabaptist practice of ordaining by lot.

This is NOT a thread to express your comfort or discomfort level regarding this practice but rather an informational thread and a place to discuss variations in how it is/was practiced in churches or constituencies.

Last evening we as a family were listening to music on YouTube and I saw a suggested video of a livestreamed ordination being conducted at Blue Ball Mennonite Church (Mid Atlantic). So, we tuned in - just in time for the actual drawing of the lot.
All the emotions of these sorts of services came back to my wife and I as we watched.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbB5Qs2E5o
Service Begins at about 7 minutes 25 secs
Ordination procedure begins at about 1:22:0

Last ordination by lot in Franconia Conference, 1965

Audio:

Our church just had a dual ordination, minister and deacon. That was quite interesting, and it was the first time I've been a member of a Mennonite church during an ordination by lot. Our current deacon was eligible for the minister ordination but was not nominated. For nominations, each male member over 21 had the opportunity to give two nominations, one for each office. We could also give only one nomination, or none.

If a person received three nominations, they were in the lot. If a man was in the lot for both offices, and was chosen by lot for the first position (minister), he was removed from the lot for the second position (deacon).

There were four men in the lot for minister, and two for deacon. One of the men in the lot for minister was also in the lot for deacon. He was not chosen for minister, but was chosen for deacon. If he had been chosen for minister, the remaining person in the lot for deacon would have been chosen by default since there would then only have been one left in the lot.

After the ordination, we now have one bishop, two ministers, and two deacons.

Our bishop is assisting with an ordination in Southeast Mennonite Conference and I learned a bit about how they do ordinations there. Someone here may be from SE so correct me if I'm wrong. In that conference, when a church needs a minister, all eligible men in all churches in the district are subject to be nominated, which means you may get a new minister from another congregation who you don't know well and who will need to move to your congregation, unless the district ministry decide to swap things around and keep the new man at his home church and send somebody else who is better suited to the church who needs the new minister. Again, correct me if I'm wrong there.

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:04 am Our bishop is assisting with an ordination in Southeast Mennonite Conference and I learned a bit about how they do ordinations there. Someone here may be from SE so correct me if I'm wrong. In that conference, when a church needs a minister, all eligible men in all churches in the district are subject to be nominated, which means you may get a new minister from another congregation who you don't know well and who will need to move to your congregation, unless the district ministry decide to swap things around and keep the new man at his home church and send somebody else who is better suited to the church who needs the new minister. Again, correct me if I'm wrong there.

WesleyB is the one to ask, I think he still lurks about. I was a member of SMC in my early teens until the formation of South Atlantic Conference. The situation you describe did not happen in the Georgia/South Carolina churches which maintained a more autonomous identity. My impression was the Virginia churches idealized a more collective identity. I don't recall an ordination using the lot while I was there. They have since, my cousin and brother- in- law were recently in the lot together.

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:04 am If a person received three nominations, they were in the lot. If a man was in the lot for both offices, and was chosen by lot for the first position (minister), he was removed from the lot for the second position (deacon).

There were four men in the lot for minister, and two for deacon. One of the men in the lot for minister was also in the lot for deacon. He was not chosen for minister, but was chosen for deacon. If he had been chosen for minister, the remaining person in the lot for deacon would have been chosen by default since there would then only have been one left in the lot.

I never heard of an ordination like this, but it is an interesting way of doing it.

Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:33 am

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:04 am If a person received three nominations, they were in the lot. If a man was in the lot for both offices, and was chosen by lot for the first position (minister), he was removed from the lot for the second position (deacon).

There were four men in the lot for minister, and two for deacon. One of the men in the lot for minister was also in the lot for deacon. He was not chosen for minister, but was chosen for deacon. If he had been chosen for minister, the remaining person in the lot for deacon would have been chosen by default since there would then only have been one left in the lot.

I never heard of an ordination like this, but it is an interesting way of doing it.

There were discussions about the proposal to do a double ordination, and one of the reasons given was that given the emotional toll it would be better to rip off the whole bandage at once as opposed to doing two separate ordinations. I also think finances were a factor; our conference's practice is to invite an outside observer to oversee the entire process and also share some sermons, which incurs some financial cost, so why not get two for one money?

barnhart wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:18 am

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:04 am Our bishop is assisting with an ordination in Southeast Mennonite Conference and I learned a bit about how they do ordinations there. Someone here may be from SE so correct me if I'm wrong. In that conference, when a church needs a minister, all eligible men in all churches in the district are subject to be nominated, which means you may get a new minister from another congregation who you don't know well and who will need to move to your congregation, unless the district ministry decide to swap things around and keep the new man at his home church and send somebody else who is better suited to the church who needs the new minister. Again, correct me if I'm wrong there.

WesleyB is the one to ask, I think he still lurks about. I was a member of SMC in my early teens until the formation of South Atlantic Conference. The situation you describe did not happen in the Georgia/South Carolina churches which maintained a more autonomous identity. My impression was the Virginia churches idealized a more collective identity. I don't recall an ordination using the lot while I was there. They have since, my cousin and brother- in- law were recently in the lot together.

Yes, I think that is pretty much correct although It has been 12 years since I was a member there. My dad was ordained when I was 7 and two weeks later we were attending a different church. Fortunately the new church was actually closer to our home so we didn't have to move.

I think that even though nominations can be from anywhere in the district, it is usually well known which congregation has the need, so there's a higher participation rate from that congregation

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:58 amI also think finances were a factor; our conference's practice is to invite an outside observer to oversee the entire process and also share some sermons, which incurs some financial cost, so why not get two for one money?

Sounds like a thrifty thing to do. But why not. Especially if no significant gain is to be had with two speakers.

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:58 amThere were discussions about the proposal to do a double ordination, and one of the reasons given was that given the emotional toll it would be better to rip off the whole bandage at once as opposed to doing two separate ordinations.

The emotional toll seems completely unnecessary to me. As I understand, the Amish and German Baptists simply announce at a regular church meeting that an ordination will take place, and the appointment/ordination happens before everyone goes home. Granted, people might not be able to give as much thought and prayer to it which could be a downside.

A bishop recently told me that ordinations and building projects are what stretches congregations the most, sometimes to the breaking point.
Who to include and who to leave out and what roles to fill in both scenarios is what causes stress in some situations. And then what to do with opposing strong feelings about a matter can also be a stress. I think that workable compromises can often be agreed upon (that have no ethical considerations) but some leaders (and non-ordained folks) find that process difficult to navigate.

For most Mennonite congregations, the emotional stress of waiting to find out who will be appointed/ordained can nearly drive some people bonkers. Delaying some step of the process can nearly push them over the edge emotionally.

Some in the congregation hope to be considered for leadership and some hope not to be and this can create quite a bit of emotional stress for them. (Especially whenever you are not supposed to give any indication that you would like to serve or not serve as this could indicate that you think you are perhaps qualified and might be voted for, which is an arrogant assumption.)

And then if you are in the lot...
There is the whole thing of inviting friends and family to the ordination in case the lot falls on you. And then going through the interview process. And then hosting family and friends and picking them up at the airport, etc. (because they want to be present if you are ordained) Only to not have the lot fall on you anyhow... which for me was a great relief both times I went through this... as I did not feel a particular calling at that congregation anyhow. And then you and your wife both waking up and being wide awake in the middle of the night due to the adrenalin and emotional roller coaster of the past week.

It begins to make the Amish and GB approach look quite attractive.

And then there are all the visiting ordained people who come for the occasion. As well as dozens of others. And they all file by making all sorts of helpful and unhelpful comments. (Christian Light has a pamphlet written by John Coblentz for those for whom the lot did not fall on, titled: Called To Be A Layman. I used to send this to acquaintances for whom the lot did not fall on. If a person had a premonition that they were going to be ordained and the lot did fall on them, then they have a story to tell. But if you had a premonition that you were going to be ordained, and the lot did not fall on you... well... you can't really tell anyone about this except for a couple people close to you who might be able to help you sort through the confusion. I've never had anything like this, but it seems that many have.

And then there are all the people in the congregation who wanted a certain person appointed/ordained, and after 6 months of emotional build up, the lot does not fall on that person but on a person they do not think is capable or qualified. This can take an emotional toll as well.

And then there are sometimes men who got "deselected" by the presiding bishops and other ordained folks. And these folks and their friends and relatives need to deal with all the emotional stuff that goes along with this.

So yes, having a double ordination to relieve emotional stress seems like a wise thing!

Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 3:25 pm

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:58 amI also think finances were a factor; our conference's practice is to invite an outside observer to oversee the entire process and also share some sermons, which incurs some financial cost, so why not get two for one money?

Sounds like a thrifty thing to do. But why not. Especially if no significant gain is to be had with two speakers.

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:58 amThere were discussions about the proposal to do a double ordination, and one of the reasons given was that given the emotional toll it would be better to rip off the whole bandage at once as opposed to doing two separate ordinations.

The emotional toll seems completely unnecessary to me.

Oh my goodness, yes. But I was trying to follow the thread rules and not express any comfort or discomfort with this process.