Morals & ethics behind supporting certain mission efforts?

[RZehr]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/student-rais ... 43354.html

[Ken]

So yes, you can round people up off the streets and detain them for violating vagrancy laws, but you can't actually send them to work camps unless you first put them on trial and convict them and the hard labor is part of their actual sentence. That might be possible in some cases, but most of the vagrants found on the streets aren't going to be guilty of serious enough crimes to be sentenced to mandatory hard labor.

Making license plates (the stereotypical prison job) isn't really hard labor. Similar occupations would be possible as well; it doesn't need to be wielding a pickax. Also, around here it's common to see work-release prisoners in orange striped uniforms mowing or picking up trash on public property. It can be made optional, with incentive$ to make it an attractive option.

But none of that is involuntary work. Prison industries are all voluntary work and prisoners are paid for it (however meagerly). That is all perfectly legal.

What would NOT be legal is to scoop up vagrants off the streets and send them to actual forced labor work camps where work is obligatory. At least not without trying and convicting them of some crime for which labor is the punishment. So I don't see Josh's idea as being that useful. We can involuntarily detain people in jail for pre-trial detention. And possibly divert them into involuntary rehab or mental health treatment as an alternative to prosecution and incarceration. But we can't just ship them off to work camps without trials and convictions.

Put another way, we can use the legal system to legally extort people into rehab and mental health care. But we can't use the legal system to extort people into work camps without a lot more legal process and actual convictions.

[Josh]

I see zero problems with vagrancy laws and prison work camps for repeat offenders. The simple fact is, nobody HAS to use illegal street drugs, commit acts of violence, or yell at passersby.

Work also provides dignity and in a compulsory setting, would steer such people into more healthy life habits. And it would pay for the cost of incarcerating them.

Penal work laws have been found to be unconstitutional for people who have not been tried and convicted of a crime. It is considered involuntary servitude or slavery in violation of the 13th Amendment.

So yes, you can round people up off the streets and detain them for violating vagrancy laws, but you can't actually send them to work camps unless you first put them on trial and convict them and the hard labor is part of their actual sentence. That might be possible in some cases, but most of the vagrants found on the streets aren't going to be guilty of serious enough crimes to be sentenced to mandatory hard labor.

Sounds like a bogus court ruling. The 13th amendment says:

“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

We’re talking about, well, people convicted of a crime. Criminals, if you will.

[Josh]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/student-rais ... 43354.html

Very sad. Most my experience with street people has been the same… they suddenly go dark once they realise you’re offering a real opportunity for change.

[Ken]

I see zero problems with vagrancy laws and prison work camps for repeat offenders. The simple fact is, nobody HAS to use illegal street drugs, commit acts of violence, or yell at passersby.

Work also provides dignity and in a compulsory setting, would steer such people into more healthy life habits. And it would pay for the cost of incarcerating them.

Penal work laws have been found to be unconstitutional for people who have not been tried and convicted of a crime. It is considered involuntary servitude or slavery in violation of the 13th Amendment.

So yes, you can round people up off the streets and detain them for violating vagrancy laws, but you can't actually send them to work camps unless you first put them on trial and convict them and the hard labor is part of their actual sentence. That might be possible in some cases, but most of the vagrants found on the streets aren't going to be guilty of serious enough crimes to be sentenced to mandatory hard labor.

Sounds like a bogus court ruling. The 13th amendment says:

“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

We’re talking about, well, people convicted of a crime. Criminals, if you will.

That is the point. You can use work camps for actual convicts who have been tried and convicted of crimes. Those still exist in the south. But you can't just scoop druggies off the street and send them to work camps as you suggest without going through an actual felony trial and conviction. Which means making a case against each addict, collecting evidence, putting them on trail, giving them a public defender, etc. That isn't going to happen for most random druggie vagrants. It would be enormously expensive. In the mean time what? Let them out on bail to go back to the streets?

[Josh]

Yeah, I was only talking about actual convicts. Not every homeless person is a criminal. The troublesome ones usually are: assaults, sexual assaults, drug dealing and possession (those are still felonies). Not to mention aggravated trespassing.

[Sudsy]

Here is my dilemma: I found a mission that goes out into the streets and helps these people with food and housing, counseling, etc. The kicker is, they supply these poor folks with clean needles and crack pipes to help stop the spread HIV and such. To that end, they also distribute Narcan to people on the street. I get it, really I do, but would this qualify as "enabling" the addiction?

I think the intentions may be good to ease the sufferings and spread of these things in the world but what puzzles me is when there seems to be no or little 'deliverance' ministry that believes that God can remove any addiction in His supernatural power and this is not where the primary efforts are made.

I am just getting involved again and attending the Salvation Army and one of their leaders mentioned to me yesterday that none, yes zero, of the people that come for help on a weekly basis, and there are many, show up for the church services on Sunday. This is interesting and I want to explore this more. I remember in my younger years where mission work would require those hooked on drugs, alcohol, whatever to sit through a presentation of the Gospel and come for prayers of deliverance from these things. The Salvation Army began focused on sharing the gospel of Jesus by addressing what was believed to be the most important human needs of 'soup, soap, and salvation'. Today it would seem the 'soup' has become the dominant focus which I think would include drug assistance of sorts.

Easing the pain of some in this short life yet believing they will suffer in torment in hell, with no help, if they don't turn to Jesus and are born again seems to me to be ignoring the big picture. And perhaps the reason for putting efforts to ease the pain of this temporal life and not focusing on eternity is that the belief in hell as described in scripture just isn't believed anymore. Believed in the sense of heart belief that results in accompanying action. I think satan is quite content, when whatever 'good' things we do, still are not saving people from hell. I know I, too, am adversely affected by this seemingly downplay on eternity and the primary focus on the temporal.

I would love to hear from others your thoughts on mission work without the Gospel. What kind of Gospel are we preaching and believing in. One that will miraculously take away the very desire for drugs or a gospel that is just some means of stating a belief and that has little to no impact on our lives now ? I think the concepts of being born again is what we really need to come to grips with and just what we believe the power of God can and will do in the lives of anyone regardless of their current state.

I grew up in a church with a 'deliverance' focus that believed in the power of God to radically change lives and many had testimonies of the life before Christ and what God had and was still doing in their life. My parents had miraculous, born again, life changing cnversions where various vices of sin were taken away by the Lord. How many of these are we seeing today in our churches ? If not many, why not ?

Is there any account in the New Testament where a miraculous deliverance took place without faith?

Wow lots to respond to since my last post. To your question. I'm not sure I understand. I do believe faith was involved in all of the miracles.

[Sudsy]

I am just getting involved again and attending the Salvation Army and one of their leaders mentioned to me yesterday that none, yes zero, of the people that come for help on a weekly basis, and there are many, show up for the church services on Sunday. This is interesting and I want to explore this more.

That should not surprise you.

If the people in question had the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for something like a Sunday church service without being compelled, then they would also have the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for job interviews, work, housing interviews, and so forth.

Clearly they have none of those things or they wouldn't be on the streets living like addicted rats.

In my mind, the only way to help most of these people (the visible homeless) is by compulsion. FORCE them to get mandatory rehab, mental health care, etc. And probably the only way to do that is through the legal system. Arrest them, throw them in jail, and then use mandatory rehab and mental health care as off-ramps out of prison. Most of them aren't going to turn their lives around voluntarily.

The invisible homeless are a different story. These are the ordinary people down on their luck who might be living out of their cars or whatever, but are still functioning members of society, often working and just trying to get their lives together. They are the ones who can be helped by voluntary programs.

I agree that compelling people to show up for church is important and could be one of the issues. In my experience sometimes this takes more than an invitation but actually going and picking them up and bringing them to church to sit and listen to the Gospel. It also takes mingling with them during the week and talking to them about Jesus who can rescue them from the sins that bind us.

I disagree with compulsion methods but rather use compassion and prayer believing that some will listen and see if salvation from the effects of sin really works. My father was one who finally came out of curiosity and wanted to find out what made these people the way they were. Why so much joy and peace in these Christians. He had many invitations before this but one day he decided to check things out for himself and God miraculously saved him and in a short time he was in street ministry. Similar type conversions happened in that church and another church I was in.

This is not about making life better for some who still end up in hell. It is about the power of God that can radically change a person'e life. It isn't about man's programs to try to improve one's life but rather what God can do to them if they give Him a chance. There isn't anyone in any condition that God cannot save and live in them in the power of the Holy Spirit to radically change their life.

But who believes that ? It would seem many Christians don't and fall back on man's self improvement programs to solve the problems or they just don't care to be involved in patient soul winning work.

[Ken]

I am just getting involved again and attending the Salvation Army and one of their leaders mentioned to me yesterday that none, yes zero, of the people that come for help on a weekly basis, and there are many, show up for the church services on Sunday. This is interesting and I want to explore this more.

That should not surprise you.

If the people in question had the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for something like a Sunday church service without being compelled, then they would also have the discipline, habit, and socialization to show up for job interviews, work, housing interviews, and so forth.

Clearly they have none of those things or they wouldn't be on the streets living like addicted rats.

In my mind, the only way to help most of these people (the visible homeless) is by compulsion. FORCE them to get mandatory rehab, mental health care, etc. And probably the only way to do that is through the legal system. Arrest them, throw them in jail, and then use mandatory rehab and mental health care as off-ramps out of prison. Most of them aren't going to turn their lives around voluntarily.

The invisible homeless are a different story. These are the ordinary people down on their luck who might be living out of their cars or whatever, but are still functioning members of society, often working and just trying to get their lives together. They are the ones who can be helped by voluntary programs.

I agree that compelling people to show up for church is important and could be one of the issues. In my experience sometimes this takes more than an invitation but actually going and picking them up and bringing them to church to sit and listen to the Gospel. It also takes mingling with them during the week and talking to them about Jesus who can rescue them from the sins that bind us.

I disagree with compulsion methods but rather use compassion and prayer believing that some will listen and see if salvation from the effects of sin really works. My father was one who finally came out of curiosity and wanted to find out what made these people the way they were. Why so much joy and peace in these Christians. He had many invitations before this but one day he decided to check things out for himself and God miraculously saved him and in a short time he was in street ministry. Similar type conversions happened in that church and another church I was in.

This is not about making life better for some who still end up in hell. It is about the power of God that can radically change a person'e life. It isn't about man's programs to try to improve one's life but rather what God can do to them if they give Him a chance. There isn't anyone in any condition that God cannot save and live in them in the power of the Holy Spirit to radically change their life.

But who believes that ? It would seem many Christians don't and fall back on man's self improvement programs to solve the problems or they just don't care to be involved in patient soul winning work.

I'm not saying that religion doesn't play a role. But these sorts of places like Kensington in Philly and the equivalent neighborhoods around the country are riddled with various missions. And none of that has turned anything around. Addiction is a more powerful demon than evangelism can deal with in most cases. I think there is an argument that many of these people need to get right mentally and physically before they are going to be ready to hear any higher message. And in many cases that is going to require coercion (tough love) rather than the enabling that comes with ham reduction approaches.

[Sudsy]

I see zero problems with vagrancy laws and prison work camps for repeat offenders. The simple fact is, nobody HAS to use illegal street drugs, commit acts of violence, or yell at passersby.

Work also provides dignity and in a compulsory setting, would steer such people into more healthy life habits. And it would pay for the cost of incarcerating them.

Again, imo, wrong solution. Many do HAVE to use drugs as they do not have the personal ability to overcome this addiction. Others in their base nature have issues with violence that they cannot control. But God can do what they cannot do, so it is up to us to tell them to give God a chance. And the power of prayer is involved to cause them to want to be rescued and turn to God for help. And being a testimony to them on what God is doing in our lives that may want them to know what makes us tick.

I think we need to get back to believing in the power of God and what He can do and get off the idea that we somehow have our own solutions and power to do what only God can do.

Leonard Ravenhill (1907 - 1994) had many quotes worth looking at. Quotes like -

The greatest miracle that God can do today is to take an unholy man out of an unholy world and make him holy, then put him back into that unholy world and keep him holy in it.

The Gospel is not about self improvement but rather what God can do in us. I like this question - “What if our striving is really worship of ourselves as god?” Something to consider.