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We have elsewhere talked about Ernie’s concept of “transitional Anabaptist churches”. I think most of us agree they are undesirable. Many people within them might want to change this too, or even leadership. Here, I have some ideas of how to prevent this.

#1. “One True Church” doctrine (found in Swartzentrubers, some Apostolic Christians, Holdemans, Orthodox Mennonites, Reformed Mennonites): this makes leaving for a less conservative church very socially uncomfortable and has consequences. Thus, people would not join with intent to eventually leave.

Most Anabaptists don’t want to embrace an OTC dogma, though.

#2. Require members who want to transfer from a more conservative church to maintain the church rules they grew up with.

This would be a challenge but would nearly cure the problem of an influx of people transitioning. For example, OO Amish who wanted to join a Beachy church would be asked to continue their custom of hiring drivers, riding e-bikes, or using a horse and buggy. It would also show respect for the church they left.

If the new church has some stricter requirements those would apply as well - for example, a Beachy church might not tolerate tobacco smoking whereas some OOA districts do.

In my opinion a willingness to do this would cure a lot of offence and divisions amongst Anabaptists.

(Some New Order Amish groups are already doing a form of this, but see #3.)

#3. If an influx of people from a more strict church want to join, the less conservative church could simply adopt their church rules.

I would be comfortable with this. I would prefer not to wear button up shirts all the time, but if we felt a number of people from a Pilgrim church wanted to join my church, I would be willing to don their attire. At the same time, the Pilgrim folks would need to cease doing things like taking family photographs. (In practice, very few people want to transfer to a church that has stricter rules in any area.)

This would make a lot of sense when a church is almost entirely composed of people from a more strict background.
Communication could be maintained with the “source” church, district, conference, or fellowship to keep the rules in “sync”.

Some New Order Amish practice a form of this.

#4. Encourage people who want to join to instead stay in their fellowships and grow spiritually there.

#5. Change an emphasis from accommodating Anabaptist seekers to accommodating non-Anabaptist seekers. It should be no harder for a “worldly” Christian who is born again to join than an “Amish” person.

#6. Transitional churches should do a much better of ascertaining why someone leaves a more plain church, and foster healthy relationships with leaders and laity in a “source” church.

For example, discipline in another church should be respected and should “transfer” over.

I don't have a problem with churches changing. In fact I am fairly strongly opposed to having a goal of never changing. My issue is more with why and how, and also what.

In any church, there should be things that are non-negotiable, and other things that are subject to change.

mike wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:10 am I don't have a problem with churches changing. In fact I am fairly strongly opposed to having a goal of never changing. My issue is more with why and how, and also what.

Ernie’s term of “transitional church” isn’t about a specific church changing, though.

In any church, there should be things that are non-negotiable, and other things that are subject to change.

This is about something entirely different, which is specifically a church which functions by moving members in from a more conservative church and then moving them out to a less conservative church. One “feature” is that none of the churches involved have to ever change anything. Instead, the people themselves keep changing their church membership, which is not something I see advocated for in the New Testament at all.

I would love to see a Mennonite church start that refused to accept anyone as members who was raised in a more conservative church. It would be necessary to make some determinations as to what churches are more conservative, and that can get gray, I understand that. But for the churches that are generally accepted as more conservative, no one could join. Again, certain judgement calls would be needed in cases of marriage perhaps.
But I think a church with this policy would be a great cases study, and would appeal to myself. Anyone from a more liberal setting would be allowed.

This would fly in the face of what I believe to be erroneous intermediate church drift doctrine, which says that more conservative people coming into a church have something to contribute towards conservation and conviction. And more liberal persons with their more liberal practices and lack of conviction on practical applications, are a more threatening influence on conservation.

Why do people leave 1 church for another?
Why do seekers leave 1 church for another?

I would hazard a guess that a large majority of the people here do not attend the church they grew up in.

Josh, several of your proposals wouldn’t have worked for you to move churches like you did.

RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:18 am I would love to see a Mennonite church start that refused to accept anyone as members who was raised in a more conservative church. It would be necessary to make some determinations as to what churches are more conservative, and that can get gray, I understand that. But for the churches that are generally accepted as more conservative, no one could join. Again, certain judgement calls would be needed in cases of marriage perhaps.
But I think a church with this policy would be a great cases study, and would appeal to myself. Anyone from a more liberal setting would be allowed.

This would fly in the face of what I believe to be erroneous intermediate church drift doctrine, which says that more conservative people coming into a church have something to contribute towards conservation and conviction. And more liberal persons with their more liberal practices and lack of conviction on practical applications, are a more threatening influence on conservation.

Good for the liberal directed maybe but not so good for seekers because any coming from a more conservative church are travelling the liberal direction too even if they aren’t liberal.

NedFlanders wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:00 pm Good for the liberal directed maybe but not so good for seekers because any coming from a more conservative church are travelling the liberal direction too even if they aren’t liberal.

And that is the catch… why did we leave the Catholics? Why did the Amish leave the Mennonites, why did the Holdemen leave the Mennonites. The question can be said on and on for multiple groups.

NedFlanders wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:00 pm

RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:18 am I would love to see a Mennonite church start that refused to accept anyone as members who was raised in a more conservative church. It would be necessary to make some determinations as to what churches are more conservative, and that can get gray, I understand that. But for the churches that are generally accepted as more conservative, no one could join. Again, certain judgement calls would be needed in cases of marriage perhaps.
But I think a church with this policy would be a great cases study, and would appeal to myself. Anyone from a more liberal setting would be allowed.

This would fly in the face of what I believe to be erroneous intermediate church drift doctrine, which says that more conservative people coming into a church have something to contribute towards conservation and conviction. And more liberal persons with their more liberal practices and lack of conviction on practical applications, are a more threatening influence on conservation.

Good for the liberal directed maybe but not so good for seekers because any coming from a more conservative church are travelling the liberal direction too even if they aren’t liberal.

I think that’s what RZehr is getting at - the intermediate-conservative churches have become very accomodating and easy for people from ultra conservative churches to join.

But they are difficult and sometimes even hostile to less conservative people to join, which basically means they are a no-go for virtually anyone from the world or from an evangelical sort of background. There isn’t a particular reason they need to be this way, a culture has just developed like that and it is actually a fairly recent development.

Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:08 pm

NedFlanders wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:00 pm Good for the liberal directed maybe but not so good for seekers because any coming from a more conservative church are travelling the liberal direction too even if they aren’t liberal.

And that is the catch… why did we leave the Catholics?

The main reason was over things like indulgences and being part of a confessional state church.

Why did the Amish leave the Mennonites, why did the Holdemen leave the Mennonites. The question can be said on and on for multiple groups.

If the Holdemans started selling indulgences and were part of a state church, I would immediately leave.

Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:08 pm

NedFlanders wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:00 pm Good for the liberal directed maybe but not so good for seekers because any coming from a more conservative church are travelling the liberal direction too even if they aren’t liberal.

And that is the catch… why did we leave the Catholics? Why did the Amish leave the Mennonites, why did the Holdemen leave the Mennonites. The question can be said on and on for multiple groups.

It certainly wasn’t because they were looking to travel the broad way! The strait and narrow way is restrictive and there are more obstacles and turns. It was for a closer walk with Christ.

I don’t see how leaving an ultra setting to an intermediate relates anything to drawing closer to Christ. In fact it IS a broader way. Personal preference isn’t holier. The person could have stayed and drawn closer to Christ unless they needed to separate because of sin of the group - the Catholics were instituting lots of sin which was/is good reason to separate oneself.