Ephesians 5: "Shameful even to speak"

[Bootstrap]

I think Philippians tells us where our minds need to dwell:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I think it tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, on the things that are right and good and true. But it's so easy to get completely carried away with the things that are evil. I think Ephesians 5 gives us good guidance here: "Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord," and "For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."

Ephesians tells us "it is shameful even to speak", but sometimes it feels like we speak about that constantly, dramatically, repeating the same old points over and over again.

I don't think that's good. Because we don't want to let all that evil stuff become the center of our thought life. And we especially want to avoid becoming "experts in all that is evil" or developing a prurient interest in it. And we also want to avoid self-righteousness, polishing our own righteousness by always pointing to the sinfulness of others. In Ephesians 5, I think it is telling us:

1. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
2. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

I think that's what Jesus did. He didn't join the Pharisees in competing to see who could denounce sinners the loudest. He walked in the light and showed them what light looks like. In love. By doing that, he exposed what is evil and called them into the light.

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,

“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

[Valerie]

From Ephesians 5 also:

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.(Ephesians 5:11)

English Standard Version
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
How do you make application of this?

A pastor Mom listens to said if we remain silent instead of sharing truth with people, & they remain in sin, we will have blood on pur own hands.

I think too often people accuse Christians of being Pharisees instead of realizing they really do care about the souls of men and women. Pharisees had a completely different agenda then Christians today who are trying to share the truth.

I agree we're supposed to keep our eyes on Jesus and obviously the passage passages you share, but we also are in a mission field in this life and we need to care about the souls of people. Right now we have to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints because society is trying to twist the scriptures. Sure it gets tiring but we are fed a daily dose of an agenda the enemy of our souls is behind because he knows his time is short. Just because we discuss it here doesn't mean that that is all we are about in our life, does it?

[Bootstrap]

From Ephesians 5 also:

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.(Ephesians 5:11)

English Standard Version
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
How do you make application of this?

That verse appears in the paragraph I quoted. I think reading it in context is really helpful, because I think the surrounding context tells us how we should apply it.

A pastor Mom listens to said if we remain silent instead of sharing truth with people, & they remain in sin, we will have blood on our own hands.

Look at what Jesus did. Here's something strange: sometimes he brought up the other's sin, as in the woman at the well, but even then, he didn't go into a long sermon about her sin, he simply mentioned that she had had seven husbands and the woman she is now living with is not her husband. He didn't go around telling everyone else about this evil woman - "can you believe this woman I met?" - to watch the expression on their face. Instead, he told her about living water. With the woman caught in adultery, he did not give her a sermon about her adultery, tell everyone else about her, or condemn her. Instead, he defended her against her accusers, said "neither do I condemn you", and told her, "go, and sin no more".

If you want to see Jesus giving angry sermons, you have to listen to him talking to the Pharisees, who shut people out of the kingdom. Matthew 23 is one of the best places to look for that. And Jesus actually preaches more against self-righteousness than he does about adultery - though he is very, very clear that adultery is wrong. A lot of that self-righteousness is the smug satisfaction that "I am so much better than that tax collector over there". Pointing to the evils of others in order to feel good about our own righteousness. Pointing to our own goodness - or at least "better than-ness" - and not to God's grace. And usually shutting the door to others in the process.

I think too often people accuse Christians of being Pharisees instead of realizing they really do care about the souls of men and women. Pharisees had a completely different agenda then Christians today who are trying to share the truth.

Some Christians are Christ-like. Others are more like Pharisees. That sin is real, it continues today, and there's a very good reason that Jesus spent so much of his time and energy preaching against it. People who call themselves Christians today have a wide variety of agendas, and not all of them are the same agenda Jesus had. Jesus gave us the ministry of reconciliation, through grace.

And "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". Listen to people speak, and you can tell how much they care about the people they are talking about, how much they value what is good in those people, how much they want you to know that God loves them deeply, no matter what they have done. And you can also hear how much they believe that we also are saved only by God's love and grace, not by anything we can do.

People who care about the souls of men and women ask how we can reach them. In most of the threads about LGBTQ, for instance, we aren't spending much time and energy asking how we can explain our own world view to others, or how to love people we disagree with, bringing them into the Kingdom. Do we really care about their souls? If we do, how are we showing that to them?

And sometimes, "share the truth" can mean "say what I think, loudly, with very strong emotional language that tells you exactly what I want you to feel about those other people". That's not what the Bible means by "the truth".

I agree we're supposed to keep our eyes on Jesus and obviously the passage passages you share, but we also are in a mission field in this life and we need to care about the souls of people. Right now we have to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints because society is trying to twist the scriptures. Sure it gets tiring but we are fed a daily dose of an agenda the enemy of our souls is behind because he knows his time is short.

Amen. But that twisting of Scriptures includes those who use Scripture to justify Phariseeism, those who use Scripture to justify politically-inspired enmities, those who want to deny that hatred or self-righteousness are even real issues that Christians should care about. The time is indeed short. We do need to contend for the faith. I think this passage tells us how.

Just because we discuss it here doesn't mean that that is all we are about in our life, does it?

Of course not. But "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". And what we see here may be an indication of what is abundant in people's mouths. How can we talk more about those other things in our lives more? How can we be more about the light than the darkness?

[Valerie]

From Ephesians 5 also:

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.(Ephesians 5:11)

English Standard Version
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
How do you make application of this?

That verse appears in the paragraph I quoted. I think reading it in context is really helpful, because I think the surrounding context tells us how we should apply it.

A pastor Mom listens to said if we remain silent instead of sharing truth with people, & they remain in sin, we will have blood on our own hands.

Look at what Jesus did. Here's something strange: sometimes he brought up the other's sin, as in the woman at the well, but even then, he didn't go into a long sermon about her sin, he simply mentioned that she had had seven husbands and the woman she is now living with is not her husband. He didn't go around telling everyone else about this evil woman - "can you believe this woman I met?" - to watch the expression on their face. Instead, he told her about living water. With the woman caught in adultery, he did not give her a sermon about her adultery, tell everyone else about her, or condemn her. Instead, he defended her against her accusers, said "neither do I condemn you", and told her, "go, and sin no more".

If you want to see Jesus giving angry sermons, you have to listen to him talking to the Pharisees, who shut people out of the kingdom. Matthew 23 is one of the best places to look for that. And Jesus actually preaches more against self-righteousness than he does about adultery - though he is very, very clear that adultery is wrong. A lot of that self-righteousness is the smug satisfaction that "I am so much better than that tax collector over there". Pointing to the evils of others in order to feel good about our own righteousness. Pointing to our own goodness - or at least "better than-ness" - and not to God's grace. And usually shutting the door to others in the process.

I think too often people accuse Christians of being Pharisees instead of realizing they really do care about the souls of men and women. Pharisees had a completely different agenda then Christians today who are trying to share the truth.

Some Christians are Christ-like. Others are more like Pharisees. That sin is real, it continues today, and there's a very good reason that Jesus spent so much of his time and energy preaching against it. People who call themselves Christians today have a wide variety of agendas, and not all of them are the same agenda Jesus had. Jesus gave us the ministry of reconciliation, through grace.

And "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". Listen to people speak, and you can tell how much they care about the people they are talking about, how much they value what is good in those people, how much they want you to know that God loves them deeply, no matter what they have done. And you can also hear how much they believe that we also are saved only by God's love and grace, not by anything we can do.

People who care about the souls of men and women ask how we can reach them. In most of the threads about LGBTQ, for instance, we aren't spending much time and energy asking how we can explain our own world view to others, or how to love people we disagree with, bringing them into the Kingdom. Do we really care about their souls? If we do, how are we showing that to them?

And sometimes, "share the truth" can mean "say what I think, loudly, with very strong emotional language that tells you exactly what I want you to feel about those other people". That's not what the Bible means by "the truth".

I agree we're supposed to keep our eyes on Jesus and obviously the passage passages you share, but we also are in a mission field in this life and we need to care about the souls of people. Right now we have to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints because society is trying to twist the scriptures. Sure it gets tiring but we are fed a daily dose of an agenda the enemy of our souls is behind because he knows his time is short.

Amen. But that twisting of Scriptures includes those who use Scripture to justify Phariseeism, those who use Scripture to justify politically-inspired enmities, those who want to deny that hatred or self-righteousness are even real issues that Christians should care about. The time is indeed short. We do need to contend for the faith. I think this passage tells us how.

Just because we discuss it here doesn't mean that that is all we are about in our life, does it?

Of course not. But "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". And what we see here may be an indication of what is abundant in people's mouths. How can we talk more about those other things in our lives more? How can we be more about the light than the darkness?

I'm sure there's a Pharisee Spirit out there. But I think that is being used against Christians to silence them. To make them afraid of being accused of a Pharisee Spirit when they are really trying to help people. Pharisees weren't trying to help people! They were trying to silence Christ. They were jealous of Christ. They wanted to get rid of Christ.

I looked at that passage in context as you said. I just wanted to know what you believe exposing darkness looks like?

Jesus met the woman at the well. He went out of his way to meet her there. But it wasn't to have an entertaining meal with her. He was purposeful about it. He is better about seeing into the heart and soul of people then a lot of Christians I will agree with that. But he wasn't just trying to make a friend there he was getting to the root of her problem. When you read church history that woman went on to be quite the Evangelist and was martyred for her faith because then she spoke out truth!

[GaryK]

I think too often people accuse Christians of being Pharisees instead of realizing they really do care about the souls of men and women. Pharisees had a completely different agenda then Christians today who are trying to share the truth.

Some Christians are Christ-like. Others are more like Pharisees. That sin is real, it continues today, and there's a very good reason that Jesus spent so much of his time and energy preaching against it. People who call themselves Christians today have a wide variety of agendas, and not all of them are the same agenda Jesus had. Jesus gave us the ministry of reconciliation, through grace.

And "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". Listen to people speak, and you can tell how much they care about the people they are talking about, how much they value what is good in those people, how much they want you to know that God loves them deeply, no matter what they have done. And you can also hear how much they believe that we also are saved only by God's love and grace, not by anything we can do.

People who care about the souls of men and women ask how we can reach them. In most of the threads about LGBTQ, for instance, we aren't spending much time and energy asking how we can explain our own world view to others, or how to love people we disagree with, bringing them into the Kingdom. Do we really care about their souls? If we do, how are we showing that to them?

And sometimes, "share the truth" can mean "say what I think, loudly, with very strong emotional language that tells you exactly what I want you to feel about those other people". That's not what the Bible means by "the truth".

I agree we're supposed to keep our eyes on Jesus and obviously the passage passages you share, but we also are in a mission field in this life and we need to care about the souls of people. Right now we have to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints because society is trying to twist the scriptures. Sure it gets tiring but we are fed a daily dose of an agenda the enemy of our souls is behind because he knows his time is short.

Amen. But that twisting of Scriptures includes those who use Scripture to justify Phariseeism, those who use Scripture to justify politically-inspired enmities, those who want to deny that hatred or self-righteousness are even real issues that Christians should care about. The time is indeed short. We do need to contend for the faith. I think this passage tells us how.

Just because we discuss it here doesn't mean that that is all we are about in our life, does it?

Of course not. But "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". And what we see here may be an indication of what is abundant in people's mouths. How can we talk more about those other things in our lives more? How can we be more about the light than the darkness?

Who gets to decide what Phariseeism is in our day? I can assure you that there are "Christians" today who would say that you are a modern day Pharisee because of what you have said on MN before about your disagreements with the Gay agenda/ideology.

You seem to be implying in this post that you have seen Phariseeism on MN in the discussions on LGBTQ issues. What I have seen is not what I would consider Phariseeism, but rather, strong disagreement with ideologies that are clearly anti-God.

I am convinced that if Jesus would appear in America today, he would speak out more strongly against these worldly ideologies that are causing people (in some instances "little children") to sin against God's design for humanity than He would what you consider to be Phariseeism on MN. I believe He would especially have some pretty harsh things to say about these ideologies being promoted by people who claim to be His followers, such as my uncle who is in a Gay relationship. I'm guessing He would speak more boldly to my uncle than I did. And I'm guessing there are "Christians" today who would call Jesus a modern day Pharisee if He would show up and preach in person in our day.

[Sudsy]

I think Jesus gave us what exposes darkness. Letting our light so shine before men that they may see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. We expose the works of darkness more by how we live and treat others always ready and eager to give an answer for the hope that lives within us. As scripture says we are epistles read of all men. I believe if I am really living this out, people that I mingle with the are not yet Christ followers, as Jesus did, will want to know just what causes me to do and be what I am. I had points in my life this was the case but too few.

A city that is built on a hill cannot be hid. So what kind of city are we ? One built on a hill that cannot be hid or one down in the valley that is hiding and engaged in the same worries and concerns of all who live there ? Or as Jesus put it another way, are we hiding our light under a bushel ?

When I think about this I am reminded of my earthly father who loved to share his story of how Jesus changed his life. Very often he would share at the supper table how he was able to shine some Gospel light with those he came in contact with at his work place. There was no hiding his faith from anyone.

I have drifted from this and although I am friendly to most everyone I run into, the light within I cover up often with things that are temporal and not of eternal significance. Cares, worries and opinions of this world that do not reflect the ability God gives us to live above all this. It is an indicator of where are hearts really are and whether the truth about Jesus has really set us free. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

That verse regarding what we like to talk about most is what is abundant in our hearts is spot on. Obviously I have too much colestral affecting my spiritual heart coming out in what I am talking about the most. Things of little to no eternal value.

Good thread topic !

[ken_sylvania]

Why did Jesus use such strong language in addressing the sins of the Pharisees? Was it really because of their hypocrisy and because they were religious? And why did he hardly even mention the sins of some other, very sinful, individuals other than to tell them they are forgiven?

Is it reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christian people today who are trying to follow Jesus, and compare the sinners whom Jesus forgave to, for instance, people who are actively advocating murder and sinful degenerate lifestyles?

The examples we have of Jesus interacting with sinful individuals where he didn't mention their sinfulness are examples of people who knew good and well that they were sinful - he didn't have to remind them of the fact. They already knew they were sinful and were sorry about it, so there would have been no point in rubbing it in.

[Bootstrap]

Why did Jesus use such strong language in addressing the sins of the Pharisees? Was it really because of their hypocrisy and because they were religious?

What does Matthew 23 tell us about why? Can you list the reasons Jesus gave?

Is it reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christian people today who are trying to follow Jesus, and compare the sinners whom Jesus forgave to, for instance, people who are actively advocating murder and sinful degenerate lifestyles?

I think it's completely reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christians who are trying to follow Jesus. After all, the Pharisees were genuinely trying to follow God. Their earnestness and zeal ("not according to knowledge") is apparent in the New Testament. These are the sins that Jesus was most outspoken about. If earnestly trying to do what is right is good enough, then the Pharisees should have been scot free.

So if we believe that the things Jesus said are still relevant today, I think that includes this.

[Bootstrap]

The examples we have of Jesus interacting with sinful individuals where he didn't mention their sinfulness are examples of people who knew good and well that they were sinful - he didn't have to remind them of the fact. They already knew they were sinful and were sorry about it, so there would have been no point in rubbing it in.

Yes, that's true. So what does that teach us?

I think there were other sinners who were not sorry about it, not ready to repent. And for them, Jesus said, "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Some of us have experienced that more than once.

[silentreader]

Why did Jesus use such strong language in addressing the sins of the Pharisees? Was it really because of their hypocrisy and because they were religious? And why did he hardly even mention the sins of some other, very sinful, individuals other than to tell them they are forgiven?

Is it reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christian people today who are trying to follow Jesus, and compare the sinners whom Jesus forgave to, for instance, people who are actively advocating murder and sinful degenerate lifestyles?

The examples we have of Jesus interacting with sinful individuals where he didn't mention their sinfulness are examples of people who knew good and well that they were sinful - he didn't have to remind them of the fact. They already knew they were sinful and were sorry about it, so there would have been no point in rubbing it in.

I wonder if we sometimes forget v17 when we quote John 3:16...

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

(LSB)

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

(ESV)

Possibly Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees because they condemned others, and because they made the way to God so difficult for others.
We are called to judge = discern, but not to judge = condemn.