Sola Scriptura

[Ken]

Yet we adopted Luther's books basically through KJV.
When indeed the deuterocanonical books from early canonization contained Maccabees (for instance).

Yet if I read Maccabees as scripture from the pulpit, and said it was indeed Biblical scripture, most Anabaptist churches would cringe.

While all along they don't realize they are reading Luther's "approved" Bible. It's a different reformation....

I question as an Anabaptist if Anabaptists even know their own origin or if Anabaptism makes logical sense.

ya know... thats one of the reasons they say Menno Simons wasn't right on everything. After all, he read and quoted the apocryphal books as Scripture. A point I agree with him on, although I'm not sure to what extent. Anyone who is skeptical of the accurate prophetic nature of some of those books just needs to read the second chapter of the book of wisdom with an open mind.

Agreed. Some Anabaptists defend the apocryphal books. After reading them i glean a lot. The Orthodox say they were inspired. And i do believe them over the Protestant explanation i heard on Christian radio today. Especially when you hear the Orthodox version of why the Jews wanted them removed from the Old testament

I'm not sure it is technically correct to say that Jews removed the apocryphal books from Hebrew Bible. I think it would be more accurate to say that they never included them in the first place when the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh was cannonized. And that it was Christians who added them in much later.

[Neto]

Yet we adopted Luther's books basically through KJV.
When indeed the deuterocanonical books from early canonization contained Maccabees (for instance).

Yet if I read Maccabees as scripture from the pulpit, and said it was indeed Biblical scripture, most Anabaptist churches would cringe.

While all along they don't realize they are reading Luther's "approved" Bible. It's a different reformation....

I question as an Anabaptist if Anabaptists even know their own origin or if Anabaptism makes logical sense.

ya know... thats one of the reasons they say Menno Simons wasn't right on everything. After all, he read and quoted the apocryphal books as Scripture. A point I agree with him on, although I'm not sure to what extent. Anyone who is skeptical of the accurate prophetic nature of some of those books just needs to read the second chapter of the book of wisdom with an open mind.

Agreed. Some Anabaptists defend the apocryphal books. After reading them i glean a lot. The Orthodox say they were inspired. And i do believe them over the Protestant explanation i heard on Christian radio today. Especially when you hear the Orthodox version of why the Jews wanted them removed from the Old testament

As I understand it, the Jews never really accepted them as inspired. [EDIT: I see that Ken already mentioned this.] They value (as we should as well) the books like the Maccabbees for their historical content (and they also celebrate some special days that are in conglomeration of events from that period). They did evaluate them, and as I understand, the book of Seriach was the closest to being considered canonical. It is also the one from which Menno Simons quoted most often (to my recollection).

[Soloist]

Justin Martyr gives reference to the Jews doing this, one of the earliest historical record we have of it.

[Valerie]

Justin Martyr gives reference to the Jews doing this, one of the earliest historical record we have of it.

Was he referring yo 1st century Jews?

[Soloist]

I’m not finding the exact reference to the apocryphal books but here is one section to support the Jews removing Scripture.

Here Trypho remarked, “We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled.”
Chap. LXXII. — Passages Have Been Removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah.
And I said, “I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: ‘And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and170 thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.’171 And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: ‘I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.’ (Jer 11:19) And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: ‘The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.’172
Chap. LXXIII. — [the Words] “from the Wood” Have Been Cut Out of Psa 96:1-13
“And from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: ‘From the wood.’173 For when the passage said, ‘Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned from the wood,’ they have left, ‘Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.’ Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from [the grave], declaring that there is none like Him among the gods of the nations: for they are idols of demons. But I shall repeat the whole Psalm to you, that you may perceive what has been said. It is thus: ‘Sing unto the Lord a new song; sing unto the Lord, all the earth. Sing unto the Lord, and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. Confession and beauty are in His presence; holiness and magnificence are in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O ye countries of the nations, bring to the Lord glory and honour, bring to the Lord glory in His name. Take sacrifices, and go into His courts; worship the Lord in His holy temple. Let the whole earth be moved before Him tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.174 For He hath established the world, which shall not be moved; He shall judge the nations with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be glad; let the sea and its fulness shake. Let the fields and all therein be joyful. Let all the trees of the wood be glad before the Lord: for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.’”
Here Trypho remarked, “Whether [or not] the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible.”

[Ken]

I’m not finding the exact reference to the apocryphal books but here is one section to support the Jews removing Scripture.

Here Trypho remarked, “We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled.”
Chap. LXXII. — Passages Have Been Removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah.
And I said, “I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: ‘And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and170 thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.’171 And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: ‘I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.’ (Jer 11:19) And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: ‘The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.’172
Chap. LXXIII. — [the Words] “from the Wood” Have Been Cut Out of Psa 96:1-13
“And from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: ‘From the wood.’173 For when the passage said, ‘Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned from the wood,’ they have left, ‘Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.’ Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from [the grave], declaring that there is none like Him among the gods of the nations: for they are idols of demons. But I shall repeat the whole Psalm to you, that you may perceive what has been said. It is thus: ‘Sing unto the Lord a new song; sing unto the Lord, all the earth. Sing unto the Lord, and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. Confession and beauty are in His presence; holiness and magnificence are in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O ye countries of the nations, bring to the Lord glory and honour, bring to the Lord glory in His name. Take sacrifices, and go into His courts; worship the Lord in His holy temple. Let the whole earth be moved before Him tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.174 For He hath established the world, which shall not be moved; He shall judge the nations with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be glad; let the sea and its fulness shake. Let the fields and all therein be joyful. Let all the trees of the wood be glad before the Lord: for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.’”
Here Trypho remarked, “Whether [or not] the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible.”

My understanding is that by that time in the 1st Century CE, the Jewish and Christian Bibles were already on separate paths and it wasn't in any sense true that Christians and Jews were sitting down to negotiate one single Old Testament common to both faiths. Much of the cannonization of the Jewish Bible happened 200-300 years earlier, well before Christianity.

So is he saying that contemporary 1st Century Jews were actively removing texts from a previously established Jewish cannon? Or is he saying that they "canceled" those texts by never including them in the first place? It isn't clear to me.

[Soloist]

And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: ‘The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.’172

Ken it doesn’t specifically say when but he is connecting the removal with Jesus.

[Soloist]

My understanding is that by that time in the 1st Century CE, the Jewish and Christian Bibles were already on separate paths and it wasn't in any sense true that Christians and Jews were sitting down to negotiate one single Old Testament common to both faiths. Much of the cannonization of the Jewish Bible happened 200-300 years earlier, well before Christianity.

So is he saying that contemporary 1st Century Jews were actively removing texts from a previously established Jewish cannon? Or is he saying that they "canceled" those texts by never including them in the first place? It isn't clear to me.

There was no Christian Bible at this point, they used the Jewish text and the letters wrote.

[Josh]

Christians and Jews used the same holy books for the first few hundred years.

The reason most Christians have the apocrypha in the first place is because it was in the texts the translators of the Septuagint used.

Interestingly, the book of Enoch was almost guaranteed to be scripture at the time of Christ too, was present in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and is still in the canon of some Ethiopian churches. The DSS copy currently rests in the hands of a private buyer who won’t allow it to be studied, etc.

[Neto]

I really doubt that I save a web address for this, so I don't have a reference. I was responding based on comments by a Jewish Rabbi answering a reader's question about these writings.

(This would have been an article put up on Chabad.org. I used to be a member on an Orthodox Jewish forum run by an Orthodox Jewess in Israel as well, but it saw very little activity after they created a FeceBook group. The forum has since closed down, and the rules for the FaceBook group prevented me from joining, as a Christian. I told the forum manager up front that I am a Mennonite, a follower of Yeshua. We wrote back & forth several times by email, because her family were also refugees from Russia, so we shared a common history in that our ancestors had experienced the same challenges during that time.)

Adding to Josh's comments regarding the LXX, it is my impression that the Jewish Rabbis of the "inter-testamental period" never regarded that translation as authoritative.