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Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:31 am
by PetrChelcicky
As far as I know, this is the first direct attack on the Amish which has been published in "Anabaptist World", but I think this is just the beginning.
https://anabaptistworld.org/dont-idealize-the-amish/
"Yes, the lesson is that if you idealize a high-control sect of conservative and incestuous white Christians with violent disciplinary systems and promote them as moral exemplars with near-magical tools for self-governance in isolation from all the perceived ills of modernity, you can convince the Supreme Court, police departments, social workers and a sizable number of Americans that “freedom of religion” means denying children education and medical care and denying survivors of sexual and domestic violence access to life-saving services and safety nets."
The writer prefers two of my most despised catchwords: "survivors" (as if their life had been endangered) and "abuse" (which alleges sexual abuse but can as well mean a simple slap).
Personally I doubt that I "idealize" the Amish. They are a sect, just as the early Christians and the early Anabaptists. This implies a kind of disciplinary system. Also sects normally prefer endogamy (or "incest"). Life in a sect nurtures a talent for self-governance und a wish to avoid the control of non-Christian neighbours or officials.
Some sects coerce their children to join the community life, but this is obviously not the case with the Amish. They lose around one fifth of their children to "the world", and in this way get rid of the least suited ones and keep the better suited ones. But even if joining is not enforced, people have to take a decision, either for staying completely or leaving completely. This is harsh, but inevitable. (And it's not as if the "normal" people can always avoid harsh decisions.)
If one feels an obligation to support "Amish survivors", the best way is to have a house or shelter for those who want to leave, but are too isolated to take the risk, a shelter not far away from the Amish settlement(s). Undermining "freedom of religion" or self-governance is not the best way; it's a path who leads out of Christianity.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:52 am
by steve-in-kville
PetrChelcicky wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:31 am
The writer prefers two of my most despised catchwords: "survivors" (as if their life had been endangered) and "abuse" (which alleges sexual abuse but can as well mean a simple slap).
I read through your post about three times now, just to make sure I understand your post.
If you have ever had to live through abuse that is referenced in your post,
survivor is the best term to use. That sticks with them for the rest of a victim's life. It doesn't go away. I don't know what kind of replies you are looking for, but with that attitude but my advice to you... tread lightly.
Very, very lightly.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:50 am
by Sliceitup
PetrChelcicky wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:31 am
As far as I know, this is the first direct attack on the Amish which has been published in "Anabaptist World", but I think this is just the beginning.
https://anabaptistworld.org/dont-idealize-the-amish/
"Yes, the lesson is that if you idealize a high-control sect of conservative and incestuous white Christians with violent disciplinary systems and promote them as moral exemplars with near-magical tools for self-governance in isolation from all the perceived ills of modernity, you can convince the Supreme Court, police departments, social workers and a sizable number of Americans that “freedom of religion” means denying children education and medical care and denying survivors of sexual and domestic violence access to life-saving services and safety nets."
The writer prefers two of my most despised catchwords: "survivors" (as if their life had been endangered) and "abuse" (which alleges sexual abuse but can as well mean a simple slap).
Personally I doubt that I "idealize" the Amish. They are a sect, just as the early Christians and the early Anabaptists. This implies a kind of disciplinary system. Also sects normally prefer endogamy (or "incest"). Life in a sect nurtures a talent for self-governance und a wish to avoid the control of non-Christian neighbours or officials.
Some sects coerce their children to join the community life, but this is obviously not the case with the Amish. They lose around one fifth of their children to "the world", and in this way get rid of the least suited ones and keep the better suited ones. But even if joining is not enforced, people have to take a decision, either for staying completely or leaving completely. This is harsh, but inevitable. (And it's not as if the "normal" people can always avoid harsh decisions.)
If one feels an obligation to support "Amish survivors", the best way is to have a house or shelter for those who want to leave, but are too isolated to take the risk, a shelter not far away from the Amish settlement(s). Undermining "freedom of religion" or self-governance is not the best way; it's a path who leads out of Christianity.
I have so much to say. You are so wrong in so many ways. Read the story of Mary Byler, raped over 200 times by family members. When she locked a door someone would take it off the hinges. Tell me she’s not a survivor. Tell me again how the Amish do self governance well.
https://www.beliefnet.com/news/2005/02/ ... eople.aspx
The Amish don’t ‘coerce’ their children to join. Hahahahaha, the psychological and financial persecution for many is enough to coerce them.
Listen, I grew up Amish. I still value many things about the Amish and love those family members who are still in the church. But I’m not going to sit around and be blind to some of the very real problems in some of those communities.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:24 am
by Ernie
Some Amish definitely need exposed like the ones Sliceitup linked to. Whether the abuse is worse than the average county in America I do not know.
What makes it worse is when religion is used to minimize or cover up the abuse.
Some Amish have less abuse than what you will find in the average county in America and some much less. These folks should not be lumped in with the ones above.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:27 am
by Sliceitup
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:24 am
Some Amish definitely need exposed like the ones Sliceitup linked to. Whether the abuse is worse than the average county in America I do not know.
What makes it worse is when religion is used to minimize or cover up the abuse.
Some Amish have less abuse than what you will find in the average county in America and some much less. These folks should not be lumped in with the ones above.
You make an excellent point. They aren’t all the same. But the fact that some of them do some epically terrible stuff should be enough to prove they shouldn’t be getting special treatment.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:29 am
by steve-in-kville
Sliceitup wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:50 am
I have so much to say. You are so wrong in so many ways. Read the story of Mary Byler, raped over 200 times by family members. When she locked a door someone would take it off the hinges. Tell me she’s not a survivor. Tell me again how the Amish do self governance well.
I may not agree 100% with all of Mary's beliefs and values, but she should be a personal hero to all the survivors out there. I watched her documentary when it came out. Her childhood was a living nightmare.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:05 am
by Bootstrap
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:24 am
Some Amish definitely need exposed like the ones Sliceitup linked to. Whether the abuse is worse than the average county in America I do not know.
What makes it worse is when religion is used to minimize or cover up the abuse.
Some Amish have less abuse than what you will find in the average county in America and some much less. These folks should not be lumped in with the ones above.
Exactly. And I see a lot of this kind of reasoning in religious and political in-groups. Instead of asking whether there is real evidence of wrongdoing, there's a rally around the flag, circle the wagons approach - "Oh no, they're attacking us!"
We should not stereotype all Amish by the worst abuses of some Amish. But let's not be in denial about real wrongdoing either. And let's not conflate investigating sexual abuse with persecution.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:07 am
by Szdfan
Both Stephanie Krebiehl and Mary Byler are friends of mine. I used to work with Stephanie when I was involved with sexual abuse survivor advocacy. I have a great deal of respect for both of them who consistently do the hard work and research about sexual abuse among Anabaptist and Mennonite groups.
Petr, you have no idea what you’re talking about. As Steve said, tread very, very lightly because you are stepping into a hornets nest.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:16 am
by temporal1
Sliceitup wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:27 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:24 am
Some Amish definitely need exposed like the ones Sliceitup linked to.
Whether the abuse is worse than the average county in America I do not know.
What makes it worse is when religion is used to minimize or cover up the abuse.
Some Amish have less abuse than what you will find in the average county in America and some much less.
These folks should not be lumped in with the ones above.
You make an excellent point. They aren’t all the same.
But the fact that some of them do some epically terrible stuff should be enough to prove they shouldn’t be getting special treatment.
i’m like PetrC, an outsider, esp to the Amish.
However, i easily imagine Ernie to be correct:
because SINS+CRIMES (not Christianity) follow the same awful patterns, no matter where they show up.
Boy Scouts, the Catholic Church, Protestants, public schools, in families. Patriarchy is NOT to blame. SIN is to blame.
SIN is NOT Christianity. No matter cheap allegations. No matter which label Christianity.
Having said that, the article also serves as a hit piece against conservative politics - by those who have no qualms about votng for libs, who are for wholesale for-profit extermination of the unborn, blatant carnal sin, etc., etc. (We can vote. You cannot.)
The notice from 2 red lipstick wearing women pastors is an alert to content and direction of the article.
i don’t follow this publication.
Re: Then they came for the Amish ...
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:05 am
by Szdfan
temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:16 am
SIN is NOT Christianity. No matter cheap allegations. No matter which label Christianity.
Having said that, the article also serves as a hit piece against conservative politics - by those who have no qualms about votng for libs, who are for wholesale for-profit extermination of the unborn, blatant carnal sin, etc., etc. (We can vote. You cannot.)
Stephanie has an enormous amount of integrity. Stephanie’s background is MCUSA and her organization, Into Account, frequently holds liberal Mennonite groups and individuals for their enabling sexual abuse in their churches and organizations.
Here’s a report in Rainbow Mennonite Church, a liberal congregation in Kansas City, KS that Stephanie has family connections with.
https://intoaccount.org/wp-content/uplo ... docx-1.pdf
Here’s a press release about IA’s work with student advocates at Hesston College.
https://intoaccount.org/2022/11/21/stud ... -violence/. Hesston is not only Stephanie’s alma mater, her father taught there.
Over the last several years, Stephanie and IA have developed professional relationships with Amish and CA abuse advocates like Mary Byler, Hope Anne Dueck, Jasper Hoffman and Misty Griffin. Stephanie is meticulous about research and following best practices. She is absolutely correct that the idealization of the Amish shields and enables sexual abuse in those communities. This is not a hit piece.
Please spend time reading the accounts of Amish and CA abuse survivors and stop trying to deflect.