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Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:56 pm
by RZehr
This is a thread based off of this conversation:
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5138
And
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 3&start=10
I believe that in American and Canada and Europe, Plain Conservative Mennonites currently have a different threat than do other more liberal self professing Christians.
Can select up to two options for some reason. I guess so someone can select 6, 7, 8 too.
Can change answers.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:13 pm
by Ken
I didn’t answer the poll because I think the threats to Christianity in this country (from ultra-conservative Anabaptist to liberal mainstream groups) are almost entirely internal.
If Christianity (as represented by major groups like Southern Baptists, Episcopals, and Catholics) is declining. And it is. Then I think it is almost entirely self-inflicted. And to some extent the result of larger societal trends. And I think that is true of smaller conservative plain groups as well.
I think it has absolutely nothing to do with government policy from either the left or right. Unless you want to talk about really indirect tangential forces like the decline of the rural agricultural economy generally, which has been affected by globalist free trade policies and the government ignoring market consolidation. But I don’t think that is the sort of thing you are talking about is it?
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:41 pm
by RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:13 pm
I didn’t answer the poll because I think the threats to Christianity in this country (from ultra-conservative Anabaptist to liberal mainstream groups) are almost entirely internal.
If Christianity (as represented by major groups like Southern Baptists, Episcopals, and Catholics) is declining. And it is. Then I think it is almost entirely self-inflicted. And to some extent the result of larger societal trends. And I think that is true of smaller conservative plain groups as well.
I think it has absolutely nothing to do with government policy from either the left or right. Unless you want to talk about really indirect tangential forces like the decline of the rural agricultural economy generally, which has been affected by globalist free trade policies and the government ignoring market consolidation. But I don’t think that is the sort of thing you are talking about is it?
I think I agree with you. I’m not sure the best way to say what I mean, but I’ll take a stab.
I’m not speaking necessarily about how government policy causes a decline in true Christianity. That is a big topic that would be interesting to have. But it’s different from the immediacy that I created the poll for.
While true Christianity may seem to flourish under persecution, blood of the martyrs the seed of the church etc., it is the agent of persecution that I’m talking about. Not the result of that persecution.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:10 am
by Ernie
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:41 pmit is the agent of persecution that I’m talking about. Not the result of that persecution.
It is folks on the the conservative right who are after me the most to vote, defend their candidates, not report on what the left is saying about their candidates, etc. The liberal left doesn't like my narrow applications to NT teachings but most of the time they let me alone.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:20 am
by Josh
Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:10 am
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:41 pmit is the agent of persecution that I’m talking about. Not the result of that persecution.
It is folks on the the conservative right who are after me the most to vote, defend their candidates, not report on what the left is saying about their candidates, etc. The liberal left doesn't like my narrow applications to NT teachings but most of the time they let me alone.
I have not experienced this. The last person who got on my case about not voting was my dentist, a staunch Republican. But that was just her opinion and I’m glad she felt open to share it.
Perhaps more of my social circle was leftists but I basically have zero relationships left with such people - they have formed an opinion that I have embraced “hate” simply because I have a conservative lifestyle. It’s fairly ridiculous. I used to be able to “fly under the radar” a bit more but since I got married it is obvious I am a plain Mennonite and it can’t be hidden. Leftists simply assume I’m their enemy.
But let us not despair. Someone told me recently that it is easier to convert a leftist Communist to follow Christ, than it is to convert a typical political conservative to embrace more productive lifestyle and political views. (My opinion of conservatives is they think their civic duties being and end with voting, and it’s largely their fault they let liberals take over every aspect of society, from schools to churches to local government to health care.) Political conservatives just keep going on and on about how everything will be better if we had lower taxes.
So, I focus my efforts on wanting to see people follow Christ’s whole gospel. The “conservative Christian” is the hardest person to reach, especially the type who doesn’t attend church. He thinks he is rich, when in reality he is blind and naked.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:39 am
by RZehr
Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:10 am
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:41 pmit is the agent of persecution that I’m talking about. Not the result of that persecution.
It is folks on the the conservative right who are after me the most to vote, defend their candidates, not report on what the left is saying about their candidates, etc. The liberal left doesn't like my narrow applications to NT teachings but most of the time they let me alone.
I too have Republicans tell me that I/we ought to vote. They intreat you because they don’t view you as a threat, but as an ally. That’s a different kettle of fish entirely, than the liability that comes living under a militant liberal state government, and judges, and agencies.
Show me the right wing laws that are being proposed by the right which potentially are a threat. Or show me conservative values, laws and rulings that put Miller in prison.
Where one is threatened, is an indication of who one’s allies are, and which party is in power. If my ally is in power, no threat. If my foe is in power, it is a threat.
So in a Republican state, there is no threat to anyone by Democrats, because the Democrats are toothless, which leaves only a small threats from the party in power, which don’t amount to much.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:34 pm
by Ken
RZehr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:39 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:10 am
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:41 pmit is the agent of persecution that I’m talking about. Not the result of that persecution.
It is folks on the the conservative right who are after me the most to vote, defend their candidates, not report on what the left is saying about their candidates, etc. The liberal left doesn't like my narrow applications to NT teachings but most of the time they let me alone.
I too have Republicans tell me that I/we ought to vote. They intreat you because they don’t view you as a threat, but as an ally. That’s a different kettle of fish entirely, than the liability that comes living under a militant liberal state government, and judges, and agencies.
Show me the right wing laws that are being proposed by the right which potentially are a threat. Or show me conservative values, laws and rulings that put Miller in prison.
Where one is threatened, is an indication of who one’s allies are, and which party is in power. If my ally is in power, no threat. If my foe is in power, it is a threat.
So in a Republican state, there is no threat to anyone by Democrats, because the Democrats are toothless, which leaves only a small threats from the party in power, which don’t amount to much.
If we start with the assumption that a Conservative Anabaptist life and community requires or benefits from a rural lifestyle. And that there is a reason why groups like the Amish seek out rural settings for their communities. Then we can identify a whole host of government policies (or lack of them) from both the right and left that make the pursuit of this life more difficult. And that therefore, threaten the ability of rural religious communities to survive and thrive.
Things like complete consolidation of the meat packing industry which hurts small farmers. Tax laws that encourage speculation on farmland by international investors and drives up the price of rural land. Subsidy laws that allow absentee millionaire "farmers" living on the beach in Florida to collect millions in farm subsidies intended to help and support actual farmers and also keeps the price of farmland artificially high. Land use laws that allow farmland to be gobbled up by endless suburban sprawl. Corporate consolidation of retail that makes it increasingly difficult for small towns to survive. Globalist free trade policies that make local agriculture more difficult.
None of those things are directly intended to persecute Christians. But I would argue that collectively these and other policies have a far greater impact on the ability of conservative groups to engage in their chosen rural Christian life than stuff like having to put flashing safety lights on buggies or sell wedding cakes to gay couples, or follow food safety regulations.
Rural life is disappearing in this country (especially small-scale rural life) and that disproportionately affects Christian communities that trend rural. And I would argue that the causes have been entirely bipartisan.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:37 am
by Josh
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:34 pm
RZehr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:39 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:10 am
It is folks on the the conservative right who are after me the most to vote, defend their candidates, not report on what the left is saying about their candidates, etc. The liberal left doesn't like my narrow applications to NT teachings but most of the time they let me alone.
I too have Republicans tell me that I/we ought to vote. They intreat you because they don’t view you as a threat, but as an ally. That’s a different kettle of fish entirely, than the liability that comes living under a militant liberal state government, and judges, and agencies.
Show me the right wing laws that are being proposed by the right which potentially are a threat. Or show me conservative values, laws and rulings that put Miller in prison.
Where one is threatened, is an indication of who one’s allies are, and which party is in power. If my ally is in power, no threat. If my foe is in power, it is a threat.
So in a Republican state, there is no threat to anyone by Democrats, because the Democrats are toothless, which leaves only a small threats from the party in power, which don’t amount to much.
If we start with the assumption that a Conservative Anabaptist life and community requires or benefits from a rural lifestyle. And that there is a reason why groups like the Amish seek out rural settings for their communities. Then we can identify a whole host of government policies (or lack of them) from both the right and left that make the pursuit of this life more difficult. And that therefore, threaten the ability of rural religious communities to survive and thrive.
Things like complete consolidation of the meat packing industry which hurts small farmers. Tax laws that encourage speculation on farmland by international investors and drives up the price of rural land. Subsidy laws that allow absentee millionaire "farmers" living on the beach in Florida to collect millions in farm subsidies intended to help and support actual farmers and also keeps the price of farmland artificially high. Land use laws that allow farmland to be gobbled up by endless suburban sprawl. Corporate consolidation of retail that makes it increasingly difficult for small towns to survive. Globalist free trade policies that make local agriculture more difficult.
None of those things are directly intended to persecute Christians. But I would argue that collectively these and other policies have a far greater impact on the ability of conservative groups to engage in their chosen rural Christian life than stuff like having to put flashing safety lights on buggies or sell wedding cakes to gay couples, or follow food safety regulations.
Rural life is disappearing in this country (especially small-scale rural life) and that disproportionately affects Christian communities that trend rural. And I would argue that the causes have been entirely bipartisan.
By all means, Ken, go make your case to the Amish on why they should vote for Democrats.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:07 am
by steve-in-kville
I'm the guy that voted for number 6. There are times I fear conservative groups with deep pockets.
Re: Poll: As Conservative, Plain Mennonites, what sort of government is currently a bigger threat?
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:13 pm
by temporal1
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:07 am
I'm the guy that voted for number 6. There are times I fear conservative groups with deep pockets.
i like how Ernie worded this, “to me,” and, i believe your response was, “to me.” specific and limited.