As Christians, what kind of government do we fear?

[Bootstrap]

I think RZehr's last few posts have put a finger on a place where I, as a Christian, feel very different than he does. We both worry about the possibility of government persecution of Christianity. We both want Christians to be able to live out our lives in peace, if possible. We are both aware that we may need to pay the price if things change.

The difference is this: I fear authoritarian governments that are not accountable to human rights or ethics, regardless of their ideology. RZehr seems to fear governments that lean far left. For instance, I don't see a lot of persecution of Christians in Denmark or the Netherlands, which are very far left for most Americans. But I see real persecution of Christians in medieval Europe under the Holy Roman Empire, in several strongly Muslim countries, in Putin's Russia. Even though both agree with me on many traditional values.

I thought it might be useful to talk this out.

Well of course. No one here is suggesting that. But the question was, what do we fear? The question was not, whether or not Mennonites or Americans are extreme. Unfortunately, our conservative Mennonite traditional positions and actions, as far as the far left is concerned, puts us in the far right camp. And as such, we find ourselves in the crosshairs. That is a threat.

I don't think so. I think people on the left have exactly the same concern we do. They want to live their lives as they understand it, without threat.

And the problem they see from the far right is that it threatens them, insists they are not valid, that they do not belong here, insists that the rule of law and election rules do not apply to them, excuses violence against them. Politicians promise to give us political power and destroy our enemies for us - and when they tell us that, the people who disagree with us find themselves in the crosshairs.

What goes around comes around. They don't want to be in the crosshairs either. And if the government can do that to them, they can do it to us.

So if we are going to be persecuted, let's be persecuted for the sake of Jesus, not because we take political sides or cheer for politicians who threaten those we disagree with. As 1 Peter 4 puts it:

But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

I think that's what it means to be "the quiet in the land". We aren't looking for a government to force people to agree with us. We aren't looking for politicians who threaten others and think they are above the law. We want to stand for the things Jesus said and did, to be salt and light to the world.

It's quite possible that we will be persecuted for that. And quite possibly by an authoritarian government that claims to agree with us on some moral issues. I think it's much less likely to happen in a "live and let live" government that leaves many choices up to people and their churches and families and considers itself subject to the rule of law.

[RZehr]

I don’t have much time at the moment to discuss. However, as most conservative, plain, Mennonites might be - I (having never met you, admittedly), would consider you to be quite assimilated, and enjoying a much greater degree of insulation from liberal persecution, particularly living, as I understand, in a red state. I think your thinking is nearer to a run of the mill Democrat (whatever that is anymore) than you do with plain conservative Mennonites.
I don’t think you have much idea at all what it would be like to be a conservative, plain, separate Mennonite in Denmark or the Netherlands at all. And I would agree that for you, these countries might very likely leave you alone. After all, what do you want to do or not do that they disagree with?
And it makes sense to me that you would feel more threatened by the far right.

I can assure you that on the west coast, there isn’t any plain conservatives that I know, who are being specifically threatened by any Republicans. If you were to bring up “threat to democracy” or authoritarianism, well, the pyramid says that near term basic safety comes before some possible uncertain future threat, right?

So while I agree that we would likely suffer under a right wing patriotic Hitler, that is merely a possibility at this point. While in the deep blue states, we have much more immediate things to worry about, things that are being done by far left activists and politicians.

Oh, and all that vaunted tolerance that a liberal society brays about? Fast going the way of the dodo. We need more of their “tolerance” like Custer needed more Indians.

[Neto]

I think that the threats to Christianity originating in the extreme left or right are different. For example, the extreme right has in the past persecuted non-resistant Christians out of patriotic fervor. (For example, the tarring and featherings, beatings, and barn burnings of Russian Mennonites in Kansas during the WWI era.) (This was a much lower level of "aggression", but a guy I considered a good friend never spoke another kind word to me after telling him I was an anti-war pacivist, telling me to "Go back to Russia".)

Then the extreme left might persecute or prosecute Christians for their refusal to compromise their faith in respect to "artistic expressions" in art work or cake decorating (as they have already). The Left claims tolerance, but they are only tolerant of people who they see as tolerating the views and practices with which they identify themselves. They are not really "live and let live" people. (At least my friend just walked away and cut me out of his circle of friends - he didn't attempt to punish me in any way, nor did he, as far as I know, bad-mouth me to our mutual friends. For me, the loss of the friendship was hurtful enough, but others have suffered much worse.)

[RZehr]

I think that the threats to Christianity originating in the extreme left or right are different. For example, the extreme right has in the past persecuted non-resistant Christians out of patriotic fervor. (For example, the tarring and featherings, beatings, and barn burnings of Russian Mennonites in Kansas during the WWI era.) (This was a much lower level of "aggression", but a guy I considered a good friend never spoke another kind word to me after telling him I was an anti-war pacivist, telling me to "Go back to Russia".)

Then the extreme left might persecute or prosecute Christians for their refusal to compromise their faith in respect to "artistic expressions" in art work or cake decorating (as they have already). The Left claims tolerance, but they are only tolerant of people who they see as tolerating the views and practices with which they identify themselves. They are not really "live and let live" people. (At least my friend just walked away and cut me out of his circle of friends - he didn't attempt to punish me in any way, nor did he, as far as I know, bad-mouth me to our mutual friends. For me, the loss of the friendship was hurtful enough, but others have suffered much worse.)

Exactly. I agree.

[temporal1]

I think that the threats to Christianity originating in the extreme left or right are different. For example, the extreme right has in the past persecuted non-resistant Christians out of patriotic fervor. (For example, the tarring and featherings, beatings, and barn burnings of Russian Mennonites in Kansas during the WWI era.) (This was a much lower level of "aggression",

but a guy I considered a good friend never spoke another kind word to me after telling him I was an anti-war pacivist,
telling me to "Go back to Russia".)

Then the extreme left might persecute or prosecute Christians for their refusal to compromise their faith in respect to "artistic expressions" in art work or cake decorating (as they have already).
The Left claims tolerance, but they are only tolerant of people who they see as tolerating the views and practices with which they identify themselves.
They are not really "live and let live" people. (At least my friend just walked away and cut me out of his circle of friends -
he didn't attempt to punish me in any way, nor did he, as far as I know, bad-mouth me to our mutual friends.

For me, the loss of the friendship was hurtful enough, but others have suffered much worse.)

Exactly. I agree.

Neto, so sad about your friend.
Over years, i’ve read some about the harshness of (shunning) which happens, it used to be much more common, not just among Amish. Contemporary psychiatry identifies shunning as one of the most painful punishments, altho not physically violent. i tend to agree, and marvel at how this was known in history before studied in science and academia.

Not unlike how all people knew that human life results from pregnant females before science and academia.

“Fear” is another interesting word.
This is an interesting read based on scriptural meaning, important to Christian understanding:

“Hebrew Meaning of Yirah: What Connects Fear and Awe?”
https://firmisrael.org/learn/hebrew-mea ... r-and-awe/

What does Yirah mean?
The Hebrew word translated into ‘awe’ in the Bible is yirah (יראה, pronounced yir-ah). It often directly translates into fear, like “fear of the Lord,” but it can also mean respect, reverence, and worship. But, make no mistake about it, yirah is strongly connected to ‘trembling’.

What comes to your mind when you think of awe?
Perhaps you think of nature, the expanse of the Grand Canyon, or the rolling green of Swiss Alps. You may think of the majesty of the night sky on a quiet night. Or perhaps an architectural wonder, such as the pyramids in Giza, the only remaining ‘wonder’ of the original Seven Wonders of the World…

If i guessed, i believe the sight+experience of a newborn child has probably been the single most heart+soul-changing event in human history. 7 pounds of completely vulnerable and trusting new human life. God entrusts us with His created life, it’s fearful, awe-inspiring, humbling.

The question might be asked, “What kind of government do (Christians) respect?” ..
Well, scriptures tell Christians to respect earthly governments. Generally, Christians do, Christians are found everywhere in the world; in history, Christians have sometimes gone overboard with “respect” of governments.

Also, “What kind of governments do (Christians) pray for? .. (i believe) wise, merciful, just. (as Christians themselves pray to be.)

Having disdain for, even dread of, is not exactly fear.
Christians may have great disdain for foolish, merciless, unjust governments. While not fearing, while trusting in the promise of eternal life. Jesus modeled this. He had plenty of disdain for sin and sinners around Him, even viciously persecuting Him.
Jesus had: Mercy. Grief. Empathy for ignorance. No fear.

[QuietlyListening]

When it comes to persecution for believers in the US, I think first of all we don't have a clue what real persecution is. We can worship God, read our bibles and not fear we will be arrested or worse. But when persecution comes I often think it will come from people who profess to be Christians and it could be the very liberal or the very conservative. I don't know but either one could persecute true believers for how they act, what they say, who or what they support.
That's why instead of saying it will be one way or another, we should be always alert, keep our focus on the Lord and be willing to live our your faith no matter the cost. I have family that is very liberal and we just don't discuss politics- what is the use as neither will convince the other. They know where I stand and I know where they stand. I have friends on the very conservative side and we have come to the place where we don't discuss politics. I remember the first time I talked about how pro-life meant just that- all life not just being anti abortion but not killing someone who attacks you, or not fighting wars etc. They had never thought of that. And I have learned to not feel I have to confront people every time I disagree.

As believers we should be living lives that show others our beliefs- and sometimes- much of the time- actions speak louder than words. Instead of lambasting the government, let's be praying. I truly believe as it says in Daniel and Romans- God puts the rulers in place, let us be praying and not accusing and be respectful in our speech about them. Local, state, and national. Not always easy but necessary.

[Soloist]

I have been persecuted over my views on fetal cell connected medicines. It’s come from the left in regard to work, although they have understood my stance and respected it even if they couldn’t hire me. The conservatives have harassed me for my views and said some fairly hostile things to me. I’ve been told it’s not real persecution and any time someone claims persecution they are attacked mostly by the left leaning.
I’ve taken a stance on truth and an issue I think is marginalized to a fault and it has costed me. The only reason I even took this stance was for the cause of Christ.
I’ve been verbally attacked by both the left and the right for not voting, verbally attacked by the right for nonresistance, verbally attacked by both for witnessing, verbally attacked by both for refusing to condemn other peoples views…
If you have faced nothing, perhaps you are not actually serving God seriously.

[temporal1]

When it comes to persecution for believers in the US, I think first of all we don't have a clue what real persecution is.

We can worship God, read our bibles and not fear we will be arrested or worse. But when persecution comes I often think it will come from people who profess to be Christians and it could be the very liberal or the very conservative. I don't know but either one could persecute true believers for how they act, what they say, who or what they support.

That's why instead of saying it will be one way or another, we should be always alert, keep our focus on the Lord and be willing to live our your faith no matter the cost.

I have family that is very liberal and we just don't discuss politics- what is the use as neither will convince the other. They know where I stand and I know where they stand. I have friends on the very conservative side and we have come to the place where we don't discuss politics. I remember the first time I talked about how pro-life meant just that- all life not just being anti abortion but not killing someone who attacks you, or not fighting wars etc.

They had never thought of that.
And I have learned to not feel I have to confront people every time I disagree.

As believers we should be living lives that show others our beliefs- and sometimes- much of the time- actions speak louder than words.

Instead of lambasting the government, let's be praying.
I truly believe as it says in Daniel and Romans- God puts the rulers in place, let us be praying and not accusing and be respectful in our speech about them. Local, state, and national. Not always easy but necessary.

as usual, i agree.
presently, conservative (voters) are being tested, the stakes are high.

similar to hill’s defeat in 2016, election results are not as conservatives hoped/expected.
time will tell more about results, and response!

either way, conservatives must decide whether to adjust and carry on, or, go-ballistic for years following, like hillary+gang.

the response is crucial.

“They had never thought of that”
is one of the most significant points for Christians to accept, and take personal responsibility for.
Jesus left it up to His followers to share His Truth.

i understand this to be directed to each of us, and taken personally.
The ways to act this out are many, even in any individual’s one lifetime. The Holy Spirit cannot be limited/contained!
A newborn baby can convert hearts by his mere existence. Conversion is the work and miracle of the Holy Spirit.

On the internet, i often find those who (i believe) are sincere Christians, committed to helping others.
However, “They had never heard of that,” happens, even with pastors/leaders. They sincerely don’t know.

i see some even saying (in true “human reasoning” fashion) - “the Dems are doing this!” - “we need to do it, too!”
i understand the math. It’s logical. Legal. The best of human reasoning. It’s not Jesus’ math.

My #1 reason for hoping biden did not win in 2020 was, it directly rewarded THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS mentality, a grave error. The U.S. was founded on better. There was hope for better. No guarantee.

i’m with those who pray for DIVINE INTERVENTION. No matter “side,” human reasoning is not sufficient.
Human reasoning, alone, is a death wish. As with all false gods. Jesus explained, false gods are liars, they are empty, cannot sustain.

The left counts on the majority to be quiet, and more honorable than they.
(“The majority” is diverse, includes non-voters.) Many do not vote, for various reasons. They count on the majority, but do not care about them or respect them. It’s part of THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.

There’s always a temptation to return fire with fire. It will take (many miracles) but i hope the U.S. can do better.

[barnhart]

What kind of government forced my ancestors out of Europe.

[RZehr]

Eastern, or Western Europe?