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In the discussions about the ongoing conflict in eastern Europe, I keep seeing this kind of argument made by people who otherwise are consistent about being non-resistant or pacifist Mennonites:

"Party A is the aggressor, party B was invaded. Thus it's OK for Party B to defend itself. It is important that you denounce Party A and express your support for Party B. You should not speak anything against helping finance and arm Party B. If you do so, you are repeating propaganda from Party a. As a Christian you need to strongly be against Party A."

The extent of my involvement in this conflict is that my own country is spending billions of dollars on weapons and ammunition and shipping them overseas, which is something that I am, generally speaking, against. I believe as Christians we do not need to get too directly involved in the political affairs of this world, but that it is OK for us to generally take a stance against getting involved in armed conflicts, financing them, and so forth.

So what is the proper stance for the Christian? Shall we continue to be nonresistant, or shall we adopt Augustin's doctrine of a just war, and figure out who is just in a conflict? And if so, should we pick up arms and join them in their just battles?

A Christian cannot support an unjust war either. Christians should not make excuses for military aggressors.

But a Christian can care for the victims of war, welcome refugees, grieve and mourn for those who are involved in a war, hunger and thirst for righteousness, or try to be a peacemaker.

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:33 am The extent of my involvement in this conflict is that my own country is spending billions of dollars on weapons and ammunition and shipping them overseas, which is something that I am, generally speaking, against.

I don't think that's true of your posts, Josh. You have repeatedly promoted Putin's cause. If you were simply saying you did not think the United States should be shipping them weapons, I think you would be getting a different response. Especially if you loudly said that military invasions are bad and killing large numbers of civilians is bad, etc.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:20 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:33 am The extent of my involvement in this conflict is that my own country is spending billions of dollars on weapons and ammunition and shipping them overseas, which is something that I am, generally speaking, against.

I don't think that's true of your posts, Josh. You have repeatedly promoted Putin's cause. If you were simply saying you did not think the United States should be shipping them weapons, I think you would be getting a different response. Especially if you loudly said that military invasions are bad and killing large numbers of civilians is bad, etc.

I don't think that's true. I have disagreed with much of what he has written here but I have not seen him as "promoting Putin's cause" rather I have seen him pushing back against our often, Western assumptions about Russia and Putin and Ukraine. Those are not the same thing. He may or may not be wrong but I have not seen him as a cheerleader for a Russian war of aggression.

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:35 pm
I don't think that's true. I have disagreed with much of what he has written here but I have not seen him as "promoting Putin's cause" rather I have seen him pushing back against our often, Western assumptions about Russia and Putin and Ukraine.

Those are not the same thing.
He may or may not be wrong but I have not seen him as a cheerleader for a Russian war of aggression.

me, too.
i’m not aware of a single cheerleader for (Putin) on this forum. (probably not off forum, either.) i believe i would have noticed.

Just War Theory is a good topic. It’s been discussed on MD, possibly earlier on MN?
i don’t believe i’ve read those topics. This is the first time i’ve thought much about it. i know others are well-informed.
i would prefer to not have to think about war.

Escalating is not a good path.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:20 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:33 am The extent of my involvement in this conflict is that my own country is spending billions of dollars on weapons and ammunition and shipping them overseas, which is something that I am, generally speaking, against.

I don't think that's true of your posts, Josh. You have repeatedly promoted Putin's cause. If you were simply saying you did not think the United States should be shipping them weapons, I think you would be getting a different response. Especially if you loudly said that military invasions are bad and killing large numbers of civilians is bad, etc.

As I've stated, I'm not Russian and don't really sit in judgment over how things should be conducted in Russia. I prefer to focus on what my attitude should be here in America and the effect my own country and actions are having.

I can say this for you, LOUDLY: "MILITARY INVASIONS ARE BAD AND KILLING LARGE NUMBERS OF CIVILIANS IS BAD." What I just said condemns rather strongly my own country's actions for the last 20 years.

As a Christian, I have a limited view of how many people are worth killing in military conflicts in order to preserve some notion of what a country's borders "should" be. If America started shelling Mexican cities because the U.S. government is mad so many migrants are in our country from Mexico, I would not support that. That would be bad. That's not the right way to try to hold on to your territory and borders.

I also find excessive concern about Ukraine's "territorial integrity" and right to preserve its borders rather suspect in the context of frequent other conversations with the very same people about how America's borders should be porous and should be open to lots of illegal migration activity under the guise of asylum seeking.

When I see conversations expressed that way, instead of a Kingdom of God focus, I see a Kingdom of Politics focus. What are essentially the mainstream left wing position (or the mainstream right wing position) is being litigated, sometimes with a coat of paint on top of it to pretend it is about the Kingdom of God.

But the kingdom of heaven is not these things:

- Ensuring migrants have access to come into America regardless of immigration laws
- Maintaining the borders that Ukraine's government wants to maintain Ukraine's desired territorial integrity
- Enforcing America's border laws and keeping immigrants out
- Russia annexing territory in Ukraine in order to keep ethnic Russians there safer from shelling from terrorist militias

These things are all part of the kingdoms of this world and it would be intellectual honest to acknowledge so.

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:32 pm I also find excessive concern about Ukraine's "territorial integrity" and right to preserve its borders rather suspect in the context of frequent other conversations with the very same people about how America's borders should be porous and should be open to lots of illegal migration activity under the guise of asylum seeking.

When I see conversations expressed that way, instead of a Kingdom of God focus, I see a Kingdom of Politics focus.

But you do not see conversations expressed that way, at least not coming from me. You repeatedly rephrase what I say in those terms instead of quoting what I say and responding directly to that. For instance, "territorial integrity" is not a phrase I think I have every used, but you keep throwing it at me as though I were. Please stop doing that.

I've been working pretty hard to keep a Kingdom of God focus on these topics lately.

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:32 pmWhat are essentially the mainstream left wing position (or the mainstream right wing position) is being litigated, sometimes with a coat of paint on top of it to pretend it is about the Kingdom of God.

I don't think so. And I don't see you responding directly to what I am saying, you keep reframing it into left-versus-right politics and responding to your formulation. Which ensures that we don't have a Kingdom of God conversation.

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:32 pmBut the kingdom of heaven is not these things:

- Ensuring migrants have access to come into America regardless of immigration laws
- Maintaining the borders that Ukraine's government wants to maintain Ukraine's desired territorial integrity
- Enforcing America's border laws and keeping immigrants out
- Russia annexing territory in Ukraine in order to keep ethnic Russians there safer from shelling from terrorist militias

These things are all part of the kingdoms of this world and it would be intellectual honest to acknowledge so.

I agree - those are questions about what Caesar should do.

But the Kingdom of God also cares for refugees, victims of war, etc. And the Kingdom of God grieves and mourns when military imperialists destroy the lives of civilians, it hungers and thirsts for righteousness. It does not justify the aggressor.

Menno Simons wrote:“True evangelical faith is of such a nature it cannot lie dormant, but spreads itself out in all kinds of righteousness and fruits of love;
it dies to flesh and blood;
it destroys all lusts and forbidden desires;
it seeks, serves and fears God in its inmost soul;
it clothes the naked;
it feeds the hungry;
it comforts the sorrowful;
it shelters the destitute;
it aids and consoles the sad;
it does good to those who do it harm;
b it serves those that harm it;
it prays for those who persecute it;
it teaches, admonishes and judges us with the Word of the Lord;
it seeks those who are lost;
it binds up what is wounded;
it heals the sick;
it saves what is strong (sound);
it becomes all things to all people.

The persecution, suffering and anguish that come to it for the sake of the Lord’s truth have become a glorious joy and comfort to it.”

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:08 amBut the Kingdom of God also has views on things like refugees, victims of war, etc. And the Kingdom of God grieves and mourns when military imperialists destroy the lives of civilians, it hungers and thirsts for righteousness. It does not justify the aggressor.

Does the Kingdom of God justify a defending army?

You seem to be drawing a distinction that the Kingdom of God sides with a "defending army" against the "military imperialists".

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:11 am

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:08 amBut the Kingdom of God also has views on things like refugees, victims of war, etc. And the Kingdom of God grieves and mourns when military imperialists destroy the lives of civilians, it hungers and thirsts for righteousness. It does not justify the aggressor.

Does the Kingdom of God justify a defending army?

You seem to be drawing a distinction that the Kingdom of God sides with a "defending army" against the "military imperialists".

I don't think I have ever said that. Could you please provide a quote of something I actually said?

I would rather respond to direct quotes of what I said, not to what you think it seems like to you. I don't think your perception of what I am saying is always accurate. Sometimes I feel like you are debating some stereotype you have, not discussing what I have actually said.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:13 am

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:11 am

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:08 amBut the Kingdom of God also has views on things like refugees, victims of war, etc. And the Kingdom of God grieves and mourns when military imperialists destroy the lives of civilians, it hungers and thirsts for righteousness. It does not justify the aggressor.

Does the Kingdom of God justify a defending army?

You seem to be drawing a distinction that the Kingdom of God sides with a "defending army" against the "military imperialists".

I don't think I have ever said that. Could you please provide a quote of something I actually said?

I would rather respond to direct quotes of what I said, not to what you think it seems like to you. I don't think your perception of what I am saying is always accurate. Sometimes I feel like you are debating some stereotype you have, not discussing what I have actually said.

Have you ever made a statement like this?

The Kingdom of God grieves and mourns when a defending military fires missiles, shells, and bombs at an invading enemy.

Because that's not the stance much of evangelical Christianity is taking. Much of evangelical Christianity is taking a position that God is on the side of the Ukrainians, and even go so far as to say God is helping give them military victories. That's the kind of thing I want to stay away from.