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I'm trying out a model to describe core difference in the theology of different groups of Mennonites who all say we focus on what Jesus said and did. I'm curious whether this model makes sense or not, and if there are better ways to see this. So here goes ...

I am coming to believe that there are three dominant themes that distinguish different groups of Mennonites I come in contact with.

1. Purity
The purity Mennonites emphasize being separate from this world, the quiet in the land, not voting, dressing in a way that is distinctly different. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, often focusing on the things Jesus said about purity.
2. Social Justice
The social justice Mennonites emphasize reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups, standing up to political structures on their behalf, sometimes becoming quite political, sometimes becoming liberal on LGBTQ issues. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, focusing more on inclusion and tearing down exclusive religious hierarchies, but tend to ignore the things Jesus said about purity.
3. Redemptive Love
The redemptive love Mennonites emphasize reaching out to others in redemptive love, treating others as they believe Jesus would have. These Mennonite emphasize what Jesus said and did, reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups and sinners, seeking to help people find healing and holiness in God's love and transforming power.

Is this fair? Is it accurate? Is it helpful?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:42 pm I'm trying out a model to describe core difference in the theology of different groups of Mennonites who all say we focus on what Jesus said and did. I'm curious whether this model makes sense or not, and if there are better ways to see this. So here goes ...

I am coming to believe that there are three dominant themes that distinguish different groups of Mennonites I come in contact with.

1. Purity
The purity Mennonites emphasize being separate from this world, the quiet in the land, not voting, dressing in a way that is distinctly different. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, often focusing on the things Jesus said about purity.
2. Social Justice
The social justice Mennonites emphasize reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups, standing up to political structures on their behalf, sometimes becoming quite political, sometimes becoming liberal on LGBTQ issues. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, focusing more on inclusion and tearing down exclusive religious hierarchies, but tend to ignore the things Jesus said about purity.
3. Redemptive Love
The redemptive love Mennonites emphasize reaching out to others in redemptive love, treating others as they believe Jesus would have. These Mennonite emphasize what Jesus said and did, reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups and sinners, seeking to help people find healing and holiness in God's love and transforming power.

Is this fair? Is it accurate? Is it helpful?

I don't think it is fair because it implies that groups 1 and 2 do not engage in acts of redemptive love toward the marginalized and the sinners, or at least that it is not a primary concern. I would argue this is incorrect, although some of what you are saying seems accurate. My guess is that your group 3 is found within groups 1 and 2, and is not a distinguishable group in itself.

I identify with 1 & 3 for whatever its worth.

mike wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:56 pmI don't think it is fair because it implies that groups 1 and 2 do not engage in acts of redemptive love toward the marginalized and the sinners, or at least that it is not a primary concern. I would argue this is incorrect, although some of what you are saying seems accurate. My guess is that your group 3 is found within groups 1 and 2, and is not a distinguishable group in itself.

I think I hear what you are saying. Tell me if this addresses your concern - or perhaps try writing a version of this that is better, as you see it?

1. I am not using "Purity" as a synonym for "Plain Mennonite", though there probably is some overlap.
2. I used the word "emphasize" very intentionally. I think all three groups overlap - perhaps because they all look to what Jesus said and did. I would expect most Mennonites to identify with more than one of these concerns.

So as I am currently thinking of it:

• Group 1 ("Purity") also cares about redemptive love and often also about biblical social justice (not the things that have been added on), but if the values seem to conflict, will generally choose the course of action that is more pure. And they can build a framework for purity that goes well beyond what is explicitly spelled out in the Bible.
• Group 2 ("Social Justice") often cares about purity too, and certainly believes in redemptive love, but if the values seem to conflict, will generally find ways to value the marginalized and disadvantaged groups, even if that means sacrificing purity and holiness. And they can build a framework for social justice that goes well beyond what is explicitly spelled out in the Bible.
• Group 3 ("Redemptive Love") cares about both purity and social justice, struggling with holding both together. It wrestles with its own impure thoughts, then reaches out to very impure people, struggling to find ways to bring them into the fellowship without polluting the fellowship. And it often fails in one direction or the other.

Does that make it feel fairer, or am I still putting my thumb on the scale?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:42 pm I'm trying out a model to describe core difference in the theology of different groups of Mennonites who all say we focus on what Jesus said and did. I'm curious whether this model makes sense or not, and if there are better ways to see this. So here goes ...

I am coming to believe that there are three dominant themes that distinguish different groups of Mennonites I come in contact with.

1. Purity
The purity Mennonites emphasize being separate from this world, the quiet in the land, not voting, dressing in a way that is distinctly different. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, often focusing on the things Jesus said about purity.
2. Social Justice
The social justice Mennonites emphasize reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups, standing up to political structures on their behalf, sometimes becoming quite political, sometimes becoming liberal on LGBTQ issues. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, focusing more on inclusion and tearing down exclusive religious hierarchies, but tend to ignore the things Jesus said about purity.
3. Redemptive Love
The redemptive love Mennonites emphasize reaching out to others in redemptive love, treating others as they believe Jesus would have. These Mennonite emphasize what Jesus said and did, reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups and sinners, seeking to help people find healing and holiness in God's love and transforming power.

Is this fair? Is it accurate? Is it helpful?

Three comments:

First, I think your categories are overly determinative. In real life a specific group would probably best be represented by a Venn diagram overlapping all of these categories in various ways. For example, a lot of conservative groups that you are probably labeling “purity” are also heavily engaged in various forms of social justice from doing MDS work to overseas missions in places like Haiti to prison ministries. If that isn’t “social justice” I don’t know what is. It just isn’t left-wing social justice like some of the urban and college town type churches engage in.

Second, I think a lot of Anabaptism is biblical but not necessarily Jesus-focused. Most of the scriptural basis for the conservative Anabaptists you are labeling “purity” comes from the Pauline Epistles and Old Testament rather than the Gospels that more directly relate the words of Jesus. Headship theology, complementarianism, belief about marriage and anti-LGBT, women’s dress, head coverings, etc. etc. mostly come from Paul or the Old Testament, not Jesus directly. Christianity is much more expansive and complex than just focusing on “what Jesus said and did” as you put it. If we only focused on “what Jesus said and did” it would look entirely different.

Third, I think there are a whole lot of other themes out there as well. Evangelism, peacemaking and nonviolence, “right to life” etc. that don’t neatly fit into your categories, but consume much of Mennonite theology and focus.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:42 pm
1. Purity
The purity Mennonites emphasize being separate from this world, the quiet in the land, not voting, dressing in a way that is distinctly different. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, often focusing on the things Jesus said about purity.
2. Social Justice
The social justice Mennonites emphasize reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups, standing up to political structures on their behalf, sometimes becoming quite political, sometimes becoming liberal on LGBTQ issues. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, focusing more on inclusion and tearing down exclusive religious hierarchies, but tend to ignore the things Jesus said about purity.
3. Redemptive Love
The redemptive love Mennonites emphasize reaching out to others in redemptive love, treating others as they believe Jesus would have. These Mennonite emphasize what Jesus said and did, reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups and sinners, seeking to help people find healing and holiness in God's love and transforming power.

Being an ex-transplant, it would be safe to say I would lean heavily on #3, bits and pieces of #1 and perhaps the same of #2. Although I am a registered voter, I do not consider myself a political person. That said, I have become more outspoken on political matters in the past 18+ months.

Isn't this partly a mix of "is" and "ought"?
From a purely descriptive point of view ("is") I support your distinction between a faction which is "purity"-centered and a faction which is "social justice"-centered. The first faction is represented by most traditional groups, the second by the "Anabaptst World" crew.
From a prescriptive point of view ("ought") I support your idea that "redemptive love" ought to be the central concept (which at the same time transcends, justifies and modifies the subordinate concepts "purity" and "social justice"). But is there really a faction which is "redemptive love"-centered?

There are indeed groups whose activities cannot very well be described as preserving purity or working for the goal of social justice, but better as performing love. Mostly groups with a supportive urge which looks out for people who they can love/support. And there are those individuals with the gift to just love anyone they are interacting with at the moment; but this gift doesn't shape groups. And even where there are groups, they are not represented as a faction within Mennonism: Is this by accident? Could it be changed? Should it be changed?

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:09 pm

mike wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:56 pmI don't think it is fair because it implies that groups 1 and 2 do not engage in acts of redemptive love toward the marginalized and the sinners, or at least that it is not a primary concern. I would argue this is incorrect, although some of what you are saying seems accurate. My guess is that your group 3 is found within groups 1 and 2, and is not a distinguishable group in itself.

I think I hear what you are saying. Tell me if this addresses your concern - or perhaps try writing a version of this that is better, as you see it?

1. I am not using "Purity" as a synonym for "Plain Mennonite", though there probably is some overlap.
2. I used the word "emphasize" very intentionally. I think all three groups overlap - perhaps because they all look to what Jesus said and did. I would expect most Mennonites to identify with more than one of these concerns.

So as I am currently thinking of it:

• Group 1 ("Purity") also cares about redemptive love and often also about biblical social justice (not the things that have been added on), but if the values seem to conflict, will generally choose the course of action that is more pure. And they can build a framework for purity that goes well beyond what is explicitly spelled out in the Bible.
• Group 2 ("Social Justice") often cares about purity too, and certainly believes in redemptive love, but if the values seem to conflict, will generally find ways to value the marginalized and disadvantaged groups, even if that means sacrificing purity and holiness. And they can build a framework for social justice that goes well beyond what is explicitly spelled out in the Bible.
• Group 3 ("Redemptive Love") cares about both purity and social justice, struggling with holding both together. It wrestles with its own impure thoughts, then reaches out to very impure people, struggling to find ways to bring them into the fellowship without polluting the fellowship. And it often fails in one direction or the other.

Does that make it feel fairer, or am I still putting my thumb on the scale?

Even with added nuance, it still feels a little overly determinative (to use Ken's term) to imagine a particular group of Mennonites as emphasizing redemptive love and caring while balancing purity and social justice. Basically, I think most groups would think of themselves as wanting to balance all of the above properly.

From outside, it's easy to oversimplify groups that we aren't a part of, and don't know well. I think you could find all of these characteristics in every group to some extent or other.

But at the same time it is true that certain groups are generally more concerned about purity than others. I also agree that purity is not synonymous with plain Mennonites. There are many purist/fundamentalist groups that are quite assimilated. A lot depends on how you define terms, and we all like to define our own terms. Groups can be "purist" on one issue while less so on others. For example some conservative Mennonites and some conservative evangelicals have common stances which they would consider purist, such as being KJV-only. But these groups are wildly divergent on how purity is defined when it comes to interaction with the government and the military.

The three groupings feel like an attempt to paint groups 1 & 2 simplistically as being a little eccentric in one direction or another, and then creating a third group that gets it right.

In my experience, every culture and sub-culture will have its "purists." Typically old guys with gray beards who resists any kind of innovation or outside influence.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:42 pm I'm trying out a model to describe core difference in the theology of different groups of Mennonites who all say we focus on what Jesus said and did. I'm curious whether this model makes sense or not, and if there are better ways to see this. So here goes ...

I am coming to believe that there are three dominant themes that distinguish different groups of Mennonites I come in contact with.

1. Purity
The purity Mennonites emphasize being separate from this world, the quiet in the land, not voting, dressing in a way that is distinctly different. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, often focusing on the things Jesus said about purity.
2. Social Justice
The social justice Mennonites emphasize reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups, standing up to political structures on their behalf, sometimes becoming quite political, sometimes becoming liberal on LGBTQ issues. They emphasize what Jesus said and did, focusing more on inclusion and tearing down exclusive religious hierarchies, but tend to ignore the things Jesus said about purity.
3. Redemptive Love
The redemptive love Mennonites emphasize reaching out to others in redemptive love, treating others as they believe Jesus would have. These Mennonite emphasize what Jesus said and did, reaching out to marginalized and disadvantaged groups and sinners, seeking to help people find healing and holiness in God's love and transforming power.

Is this fair? Is it accurate? Is it helpful?

Based on your description, #3 is obviously the correct answer, as the other two options have the omissive caveats associated with them. Without purity, what are you offering marginalized and disadvantaged groups to "come out of". Finding Holiness implies purity, and healing is often found in removing oneself from an impure influence or environment.

I guess I'd say, you can't have #3 without #1.

Regarding #2, Jesus always told people to "go and sin no more", that is completely contrary to the social justice movement unfortunately. Mennonites who align themselves there will find their way away from God, as it invites sin into their own lives.