The Apocrypha

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Post Reply
MaxPC
Posts: 9185
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by MaxPC »

Mama wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote: It’s been a long time, but isn’t there something there that puts witchcraft in an acceptable light? That is the only contradiction that is coming to my mind.
Perhaps you are referring to the book of Tobit? I seem to remember that someone interpreted Raphael's "remedies and cures" as witchcraft but in reality they were actually remedies and cures. Penicillin isn't witchcraft (unless you are allergic to it :mrgreen:). Some of the mentioned remedies and cures may seem foreign to us now but they were standard protocols for medical reasons in the past. Remember leeches? :shock:

I think there are misunderstandings that tend to be promoted and people will sometimes take it at face value rather than checking out the interpretation for themselves. The reasons for misunderstanding will vary: from reading or misreading a bad translation; poor education; even political agendas.

Such is life. YMMV :D
Tobit is one of my favourite books. The origin of Cod Liver Oil :up:

What does YMMV stand for?
Your Mileage May Vary: it means you may have a different interpretation of a situation. :D
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Judas Maccabeus
Posts: 4137
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Maryland
Affiliation: Con. Menno.

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

RZehr wrote:
Swiss Bro wrote:Are there any doctrines in the Apocrypha that are in contradiction to Biblical teachings?
It’s been a long time, but isn’t there something there that puts witchcraft in an acceptable light? That is the only contradiction that is coming to my mind.
Tobit 6:6-7. 5 Tobias did as the angel had told him. Then he cooked the fish, ate part of it, and salted the rest to take along with him.

The two continued on together until they were near Media. 6 Then Tobias asked,
Azarias, my friend, what diseases can be cured by this gall bladder, heart, and liver?
7 The angel answered,
The heart and liver can be burned and used to chase away a demon or an evil spirit that is tormenting someone. The attacks will stop immediately, and the person will never be troubled again.

This whole Apocrypha thing is beyond crazy. Only someone who has been conditioned by modern conspiracy theories would think the Jews would erase part of their scripture just to get rid of a few troubling verses, and leave even more troubling Isaiah and Zachrariah passages intact.

Just look at any standard textbook like Geissler and Nix and you will see an extremely solid case. They are for historical and contextual use and generally are labeled as such.

J.M.
0 x
:hug:
MaxPC
Posts: 9185
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by MaxPC »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
RZehr wrote:
Swiss Bro wrote:Are there any doctrines in the Apocrypha that are in contradiction to Biblical teachings?
It’s been a long time, but isn’t there something there that puts witchcraft in an acceptable light? That is the only contradiction that is coming to my mind.
Tobit 6:6-7. 5 Tobias did as the angel had told him. Then he cooked the fish, ate part of it, and salted the rest to take along with him.

The two continued on together until they were near Media. 6 Then Tobias asked,
Azarias, my friend, what diseases can be cured by this gall bladder, heart, and liver?
7 The angel answered,
The heart and liver can be burned and used to chase away a demon or an evil spirit that is tormenting someone. The attacks will stop immediately, and the person will never be troubled again.

This whole Apocrypha thing is beyond crazy. Only someone who has been conditioned by modern conspiracy theories would think the Jews would erase part of their scripture just to get rid of a few troubling verses, and leave even more troubling Isaiah and Zachrariah passages intact.

Just look at any standard textbook like Geissler and Nix and you will see an extremely solid case. They are for historical and contextual use and generally are labeled as such.

J.M.
Many things referred to as demons or evil spirits also happened to be mental illnesses, some of which can be cured or lessened by the vitamin D found in fish.

Jesus was accused of witchcraft because He healed madness. I agree with J.M. when he said:
This whole Apocrypha thing is beyond crazy. Only someone who has been conditioned by modern conspiracy theories would think the Jews would erase part of their scripture just to get rid of a few troubling verses, and leave even more troubling Isaiah and Zachrariah passages intact.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14683
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by Bootstrap »

First off, "the apocrypha" does not clearly identify which books you mean. It's a Protestant term referring to books that other groups of Christians have in their Bibles but Protestants do not.

If you use the Hebrew Old Testament, these books are not present. Jews do not include these books in their Bible because they are not in the Hebrew Old Testament. Christians who rely on the Hebrew text do not include them either.

If you use the Septuagint, a very early Greek translation from the Hebrew ... well, there are different early Septuagints, they generally include what Catholics have in their Septuagint (1-2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch (including the Letter of Jeremiah), additions to Esther, and additions to Daniel).

Some early Septuagints also include the Psalms of Solomon, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, the Epistle of Jeremiah, the Book of Odes, the Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151. Some of these are accepted as canonical by some Eastern Orthodox or similar churches, their canons vary a little.

Whether or not you consider the Septuagint canonical may not matter much if you interpret the Old Testament through the eyes of the new. It fills in a lot of useful history, telling about the period between the end of the Hebrew Old Testament and the time of Christ, and it's really helpful to know this to understand the context of the New Testament. I don't think our faith changes much depending on whether you believe these books are canonical.

Now if you consider the Gospel of Thomas canonical, that's another matter entirely ;->
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14683
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by Bootstrap »

Mama wrote:Tobit is one of my favourite books. The origin of Cod Liver Oil :up:
Hmmm. If Tobit is the origin of Cod Liver Oil, maybe I don't want to consider it canonical ...
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Mama
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:23 am
Affiliation: Traditional Catholic

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by Mama »

Bootstrap wrote:
Mama wrote:Tobit is one of my favourite books. The origin of Cod Liver Oil :up:
Hmmm. If Tobit is the origin of Cod Liver Oil, maybe I don't want to consider it canonical ...
Do you have a problem with cod liver oil? :laugh
0 x
appleman2006
Posts: 2456
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:50 pm
Affiliation: Midwest Mennonite

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by appleman2006 »

Bootstrap wrote: Whether or not you consider the Septuagint canonical may not matter much if you interpret the Old Testament through the eyes of the new. It fills in a lot of useful history, telling about the period between the end of the Hebrew Old Testament and the time of Christ, and it's really helpful to know this to understand the context of the New Testament. I don't think our faith changes much depending on whether you believe these books are canonical.
This describes very much where I come out on the issue.
0 x
QuietObserver
Posts: 445
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:56 pm
Affiliation:

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by QuietObserver »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: This whole Apocrypha thing is beyond crazy. Only someone who has been conditioned by modern conspiracy theories would think the Jews would erase part of their scripture just to get rid of a few troubling verses, and leave even more troubling Isaiah and Zachrariah passages intact.
This is unfair. I don't share Bercot's admiration for the early church, but I've always found him to be intellectually honest.
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Just look at any standard textbook like Geissler and Nix and you will see an extremely solid case. They are for historical and contextual use and generally are labeled as such.
Thanks - I will check these out. Who "labels these as such"?
0 x
Judas Maccabeus
Posts: 4137
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Maryland
Affiliation: Con. Menno.

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

QuietObserver wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote: This whole Apocrypha thing is beyond crazy. Only someone who has been conditioned by modern conspiracy theories would think the Jews would erase part of their scripture just to get rid of a few troubling verses, and leave even more troubling Isaiah and Zachrariah passages intact.
This is unfair. I don't share Bercot's admiration for the early church, but I've always found him to be intellectually honest.
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Just look at any standard textbook like Geissler and Nix and you will see an extremely solid case. They are for historical and contextual use and generally are labeled as such.
Thanks - I will check these out. Who "labels these as such"?
First, have you ever looked at the title page of the apocrypha in a Bible, except for an RCC or Eastern Orthodox one? All of mine say something to that effect.

Even the RCC refers to the apocrypha as the “Deuterocanonical” books, or the second cannon....was not fully endorsed until the council of Trent.

I am not saying that David is dishonest, only wrong. To say the Jews did what would have been required to “alter” the scripture in the way that his theory requires would cause an uproar, and would have left tracks that we could find. Othman’s “standardization “ of the Quran sure did. He could recall the books, but not the buildings on which the verses had been chiseled.

I think his admiration for the early church has gone way to far. The normal endpoint in such is joining the Eastern Orthodox Church. I don’t see that, but everyone else who has gone in that direction ends up there.

J.M.
0 x
:hug:
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14683
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: The Apocrypha

Post by Bootstrap »

Listening to the video in the OP, I'm surprised by his history of the canon.

The earliest list of Old Testament books I am aware of is Melito's Canon (about 170 AD), from Melito of Sardis, who died in 180 AD. Eusebius quotes it as follows:
Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras.
"Jesus Nave" is another name for the book of Joshua. "Wisdom" is the "Wisdom of Solomon", the only book Protestants consider apocryphal in this list, which does not contain any books that advocate cod liver oil.

Eusebius also quotes a list of Old Testament books from Origen of Alexandria:
That which is called by us Genesis, but by the Hebrews, from the beginning of the book, Bresith, which means, ‘In the beginning’; Exodus, Welesmoth, that is, ‘These are the names’; Leviticus, Wikra, ‘And he called‘; Numbers, Ammesphekodeim; Deuteronomy, Eleaddebareim, ‘These are the words’; Jesus, the son of Nave, Josoue ben Noun; Judges and Ruth, among them in one book, Saphateim; the First and Second of Kings, among them one, Samouel, that is, ‘The called of God’; the Third and Fourth of Kings in one, Wammelch David, that is, ‘The kingdom of David’; of the Chronicles, the First and Second in one, Dabreïamein, that is, ‘Records of days’; Esdras, First and Second in one, Ezra, that is, ‘An assistant’; the book of Psalms, Spharthelleim; the Proverbs of Solomon, Meloth; Ecclesiastes, Koelth; the Song of Songs (not, as some suppose, Songs of Songs), Sir Hassirim; Isaiah, Jessia; Jeremiah, with Lamentations and the epistle in one, Jeremia; Daniel, Daniel; Ezekiel, Jezekiel; Job, Job; Esther, Esther. And besides these there are the Maccabees, which are entitled Sarbeth Sabanaiel.
I don't know why some names are doubled.

Athenasius gives this list:
There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second4544 are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and4545 the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.
He also mentions some books that are not part of the Canon, but worth reading. He does not call them apocryphal writings, which implies hidden texts, and tells us not to call them that.
But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple.
The video seems to give the impression that "the Septuagint" was a fixed set of books that all of the early Church accepted. The lists of books I see in early church writings differ significantly, and some of the earliest do not contain most of what is in modern Septuagints.

Bercot doesn't mention the early church canons or discuss why they differ from each other, nor does he seriously address the treatment of Septuagint books in these lists.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Post Reply