Anabaptism, the New Testament, and capital punishment

[barnhart]

This thread is illustrating Chester Weaver's observation that "we don't know our own history" and also we don't know our historical doctrine either.

[Nomad]

The typical Anabaptist position is to not use deadly force. That makes some civil government options available, like being a firefighter or even a fire chief, but others are not, such as a bailiff.

Some Anabaptists take it to a stricter degree and avoid any kind of force at all, or claim they don't, although this tends to stretch the bounds of believability in my view, since such people also discipline their children and so forth.

Finally, many people criticise Anabaptists who claim that words are the same thing as using deadly force or strong persuasion, even though they aren't. This is one of the most common criticisms of nonresistance I hear, actually, going so far as to tell me it's actually the same thing as using violence and deadly force for me to merely disagree with someone or rebuke them.

I'm not against disagreement (obviously I disagree with plenty here). But more the retaliation aspect we/ I often exhibit. Our mouth indeed can be used as a weapon:

Psalm 57:4 – "My soul is in the midst of lions... whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword."

Psalm 59:7 – "Behold, they belch forth with their mouth; swords are in their lips, for they say, 'Who hears?'"

Psalm 64:3 – "Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words."

Psalm 140:3 – "They make their tongue sharp as a serpent's; adders' poison is under their lips."

[mike]

The typical Anabaptist position is to not use deadly force. That makes some civil government options available, like being a firefighter or even a fire chief, but others are not, such as a bailiff.

I think this is true, but I think it's a little more than that. There is the sense of civil government being another kingdom, which is not our domain. Being a firefighter isn't typically seen as being a member of the government. Even perhaps being an employee of a government agency (such as a postman) is probably not seen that way, although it might be viewed as a gray area in some Anabaptist circles.

I don't think it's quite right to say that the Anabaptist worldview would have no problem with service as a politician or employee of the department of defense as long as they did not themselves use deadly force.

There would be some variation in this historically, as I've heard some groups allowed serving as a medic in the army (church of the Brethren, I believe, but many of whom at some point discarded nonresistance altogether). But this would not represent the view of the Amish, conservative Mennonites, and Hutterites.

[JohnH]

I'm not against disagreement (obviously I disagree with plenty here). But more the retaliation aspect we/ I often exhibit. Our mouth indeed can be used as a weapon:

Psalm 57:4 – "My soul is in the midst of lions... whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword."

Psalm 59:7 – "Behold, they belch forth with their mouth; swords are in their lips, for they say, 'Who hears?'"

Psalm 64:3 – "Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words."

Psalm 140:3 – "They make their tongue sharp as a serpent's; adders' poison is under their lips."

Yet none of that makes words and violence the same thing, and I think it does a great disservice to conflate the two.

[JohnH]

The typical Anabaptist position is to not use deadly force. That makes some civil government options available, like being a firefighter or even a fire chief, but others are not, such as a bailiff.

I think this is true, but I think it's a little more than that. There is the sense of civil government being another kingdom, which is not our domain. Being a firefighter isn't typically seen as being a member of the government. Even perhaps being an employee of a government agency (such as a postman) is probably not seen that way, although it might be viewed as a gray area in some Anabaptist circles.

I don't think it's quite right to say that the Anabaptist worldview would have no problem with service as a politician or employee of the department of defense as long as they did not themselves use deadly force.

There would be some variation in this historically, as I've heard some groups allowed serving as a medic in the army (church of the Brethren, I believe, but many of whom at some point discarded nonresistance altogether). But this would not represent the view of the Amish, conservative Mennonites, and Hutterites.

You have a point there, although I've found the Anabaptist position to be a bit inconsistent (a volunteer firefighting unit is absolutely part of the civil government, at least where I live); some things are considered too much a part of government and others aren't. Some Anabaptist groups won't do things like volunteer firefighting (the Amish where I am will not), considering it too much associated with "the word" and crossing the line to government service. In other places, the entire fire squad is composed of plain people, like in the plain communities in northern California.

Some groups wouldn't do things like be a flight attendant, although in BMA circles this is acceptable (there was a profile of a BMA woman who is a flight attendant in Daughters of Promise a few years ago).

I don't think any plain person would be comfortable being a Union Pacific Special Agent, even though that's not technically working for civil government.

[ohio jones]

Often the lines are drawn with respect to wielding the metaphorical Sword (a literal fire axe may be okay), more than whether the actual employer is the government, UP, UPS, or USPS.

Flight attendants aren't armed, don't work for the government, and don't execute capital punishment. There may be other reasons outside the scope of this thread why some might discourage the occupation.

[JohnH]

Often the lines are drawn with respect to wielding the metaphorical Sword (a literal fire axe may be okay), more than whether the actual employer is the government, UP, UPS, or USPS.

Flight attendants aren't armed, don't work for the government, and don't execute capital punishment. There may be other reasons outside the scope of this thread why some might discourage the occupation.

Well, almost nobody who works for the government "executes capital punishment". It is a very short list of people, and there is a great deal of leeway to excuse one's self from executing such sentences.