Kingdom Christian and Charity Movements

[Ernie]

So we are back to truth is relative?

No. Jesus is the truth. The scriptures point us to the truth. My understanding of the scriptures may not be the truth.

[Judas Maccabeus]

So we are back to truth is relative?

No. Jesus is the truth. The scriptures point us to the truth. My understanding of the scriptures may not be the truth.

Been reading Karl Barth lately? That is straight from his "Epistle to the Romans." It more or less forms the basis of Neo-Orthodoxy. Call me a fundamentalist if you like, but the scriptures are objectively true.

J.M.

[Ken]

So we are back to truth is relative?

No. Jesus is the truth. The scriptures point us to the truth. My understanding of the scriptures may not be the truth.

In other words, the truth is out there. But flawed humans may be looking for it through dirty/fogged glasses so to speak.

[joshuabgood]

So we are back to truth is relative?

No. Jesus is the truth. The scriptures point us to the truth. My understanding of the scriptures may not be the truth.

Been reading Karl Barth lately? That is straight from his "Epistle to the Romans." It more or less forms the basis of Neo-Orthodoxy. Call me a fundamentalist if you like, but the scriptures are objectively true.

J.M.

Since you said it. You are a fundamentalist =).

Here is the thing though, even if the scriptural text is objective truth, our interpretations are not.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I hear you JM, and you are right in that, were it not for CA scholars, Sattler would pretty much lose 90% of their student body. They simply haven't managed yet to appeal broadly. Simultaneously there is obviously much they like about "our" the CA, product.

Interestingly, their original vision was to try to "market" conservative Anabaptism to evangelical background people. So far they've managed to have 2 non-CA people enroll (as of the last conversation I had, during AIC 2019).

Yes, originally during the design stage, Kuruvilla said he wasn't planning on recruiting CA students. He was going to recruit among the fans of Francis Chan, etc. Folks who were disappointed that their parents were rooting for Trump and were looking for a third way.
Once it was time to get students, there was heavy recruiting among Anabaptists. Then Kuruvilla explained that it was actually good to start with a CA student body, as it helped establish the kind of two-kingdom culture that he wanted to see at Sattler. At this point, I'm not sure what base they plan to target in the future.

Instead, Sattler seems to be on a mission to evangelise and "convert" students to FOTW's way of thinking, and then send them back to their home communities as change agents
Yes, either that or keep them and use them in FOTW endeavors.

Most of the people who are into Chan and others would not even consider a school like Sattler, the pastors of where they attend would likely direct them otherwise. They would be channeled into one of the many reformed seminaries to learn the "truth" ( as reformed scholars see it, frankly I believe it is anything but) so they can be change agents and "straighten out" SBC churched that are not yet reformed. I am still in touch with my evangelical friends, and know what is happening in the larger evangelical world.[/quote]

Instead, Sattler seems to be on a mission to evangelise and "convert" students to FOTW's way of thinking, and then send them back to their home communities as change agents.

Yes, either that or keep them and use them in FOTW endeavors.[/quote]

I am glad at least someone admits this. IF this is true, now to hope they honestly communicate their intentions to the conservative mennonite world. I question why any pastor would want to see his young people proselytized into a movement with questionable doctrine (As soon as they tell us in writing what it actually is) and the objective of channeling them away from their home congregations.

As to "change agents" back in my evangelical days, we used to call it the "first year Bible school syndrome." First year students would come home and try to "fix" their church, with all of the ideas they got in Bible school. Results were either student leaving, causing a split, or getting some quick direction on being submissive to authority. I fear problems ahead if what you say is correct. Much of what they cooer to teach up there is not going to fly in many churches. As I have said before, baptismal regeneration and real presence is well outside of a mennonite understanding of Biblical truth.


J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

No. Jesus is the truth. The scriptures point us to the truth. My understanding of the scriptures may not be the truth.

Been reading Karl Barth lately? That is straight from his "Epistle to the Romans." It more or less forms the basis of Neo-Orthodoxy. Call me a fundamentalist if you like, but the scriptures are objectively true.

J.M.

Since you said it. You are a fundamentalist =).

Here is the thing though, even if the scriptural text is objective truth, our interpretations are not.

That is true, but the closer our understanding is to the text the more truth it is.

If you had calculus, think of a limits argument.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Are they actually calling their leaders "Apostles"...

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of this practice at FOTW? If it is so, what powers or responsibilities come with this title that are distinct from "shepherd" or "pastor".

Yes...they are fully bought into the "five-fold ministry" model. (Well available online.) They would advocate for it as the model ordained by God and outlined in the NT. It goes something like this:

1) Apostles - these folks are like entrepreneurs with the gospel. They go and start up churches etc. They are movers and shakers. After they start something they move on like Paul and write letters back and visit...but go on to start the next thing. Finny has a lot of this trait.

2) Prophets - these folks are good at calling sin sin. And see things with a moral black and white clarity. They are bold and unafraid. They speak God's Word to the people. Milioni is one of these.

3) Teachers - these people are good at teaching the word and explaining it for the common man. They break down the simple life giving truths of God's Word. Finny also has this gifting.

4) Pastors/Shepherds - These people are the counselor types that care for peoples emotional and spiritual individual needs. They pray for people, are mercy givers etc.

5) Evangelists - These folks are story tellers regarding their testimony. Bringers of Good News etc.

And you can google Five-fold Ministry test and take a personality profile and find out what giftings you have. Finny personally told me these giftings, in his view (with which I agree) apply to men and women. Finny referred me personally to the test, which I took. I came out part teacher part prophet.

This is popular in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles. It has been one train wreck after another.

It has frequently lead to unchecked authority, and abuse. If you want an example, look no further than Sovereign Grace.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Paging JM

Been busy. Have a pile of stuff on my plate. I have gotten at least some of it done.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of this practice at FOTW? If it is so, what powers or responsibilities come with this title that are distinct from "shepherd" or "pastor".

Yes...they are fully bought into the "five-fold ministry" model. (Well available online.) They would advocate for it as the model ordained by God and outlined in the NT. It goes something like this:

1) Apostles
2) Prophets
3) Teachers
4) Pastors/Shepherds
5) Evangelists

And you can google Five-fold Ministry test and take a personality profile and find out what giftings you have. Finny personally told me these giftings, in his view (with which I agree) apply to men and women. Finny referred me personally to the test, which I took. I came out part teacher part prophet.

This is mostly news to me.. this aspect of their thinking.

First, does the test assume that everyone is one of the 5? Or will it tell you, "you're not any of these things"? Surely, they wouldn't teach that every Christian is one or the other?

Secondly, for a group that derives much of its theology from the early church writings, I'm surprised they take this position. Can anyone give an example of any (respected) early church leader that took the title "Apostle" to himself? I'm not a patristics expert here but from what I know from early Christian writings, this is not the ministry model of the early church - at least not beyond the actual apostolic period.

In the iterations that I have seen, it is only men, and not everyone has one of the "Gift Ministries" as they are called. For me, calling someone an "apostle" really crosses the line. I would suggest that to be an apostle, you would need have seen Jesus. This is no longer a possibility. Look at Paul's defense of his ministry 1 Cor 9:1one of the defenses of his apostleship he uses is that he has seen the Lord.

Groups that adopt this view more often than not become train wrecks.

J.M.

J.M.

[Ernie]

Yes, either that or keep them and use them in FOTW endeavors.

I am glad at least someone admits this. IF this is true, now to hope they honestly communicate their intentions to the conservative mennonite world. I question why any pastor would want to see his young people proselytized into a movement with questionable doctrine (As soon as they tell us in writing what it actually is) and the objective of channeling them away from their home congregations.

Finny un-apologetically says he tells his people, "You should be part of the most biblical church. If FOTW is not that, you should go to the more biblical one."

This is not what you will hear at a CA Bible school.