On being liberal and our diversity (poll)

[ken_sylvania]

It has perplexed me over the years at what some church groups deem acceptable occupations, and what is frowned upon or prohibited. Working night shift, OTR truck driving, paid EMT.... I could go on.

I'm perfectly comfortable questioning certain professions that are exploitative, violent, or otherwise unsavory: Drug dealers (including pharma reps pushing opioids), porn actors and actresses and pornographers, pro wrestlers, tobacco merchants and manufacturers, etc. etc. But there are always grey areas and nuance. And to me these sorts of things fall under the category of personal responsibility rather than church business. I don't think, for example, that a single mother needs to quit her job at Wal-Mart because the corporation sells tobacco. Or that someone working in a Kraft Foods factory needed to quit their job when that company was acquired by Phillip Morris tobacco.

I think these sorts of religious prohibitions are overly simplistic and a relic of a time centuries ago when professions and the economy was much different.

I'm not aware that either of the examples you give would be problematic in the plain churches I'm familiar with.

[Ken]

It has perplexed me over the years at what some church groups deem acceptable occupations, and what is frowned upon or prohibited. Working night shift, OTR truck driving, paid EMT.... I could go on.

I'm perfectly comfortable questioning certain professions that are exploitative, violent, or otherwise unsavory: Drug dealers (including pharma reps pushing opioids), porn actors and actresses and pornographers, pro wrestlers, tobacco merchants and manufacturers, etc. etc. But there are always grey areas and nuance. And to me these sorts of things fall under the category of personal responsibility rather than church business. I don't think, for example, that a single mother needs to quit her job at Wal-Mart because the corporation sells tobacco. Or that someone working in a Kraft Foods factory needed to quit their job when that company was acquired by Phillip Morris tobacco.

I think these sorts of religious prohibitions are overly simplistic and a relic of a time centuries ago when professions and the economy was much different.

I'm not aware that either of the examples you give would be problematic in the plain churches I'm familiar with.

My point exactly.

[Sudsy]

I don't have links to anything about this, but I remember that during the 70's there were some strikes which resulted in violence, mostly against strike breakers, and some vandalism. The union I was pressured to join was a 'blue-collar' union - I doubt if teachers would generally be as physically confrontational as industry workers. I did think through the issue for myself at that time, and remember seeing some information from the union that did specifically refer to members as 'brother'. I rather doubt if most MB congregations still have standards about this.

Hi Neto. In our MB church we have this link to our detailed 'Confession of Faith' but I have not heard of any detailed 'standards' as referred to in what I bolded above. Do you have a link to some MB list beyond this or were you saying that local MB churches had certain specific instructions in areas written down somewhere ? I am not aware of any written list that exists in the MB organization beyond what this 'Confession of Faith' says.

https://www.mennonitebrethren.ca/mb-bel ... d-edition/

This might be a shocker for some - regarding the leading poll item being 'women wearing pants' in our worship leaders women wear pants, sometimes short pants, and men dress no differently than they do during the week which includes shorts. Actually some of the young men wear hats (some worn backwards) in the worship team. But we may be more early church in foot wear as sandals are quite common. Dress is a non-issue but if someone was completely out of place (i.e. wearing a bikini as also unacceptable in general public wear) I believe they would be dealt with. According to the poll we probably are considered 'ultra liberal' by many here. But that is OK with me as my belief is God looks on the heart. How we love Him and how we treat others as ourselves.

[Wade]

Blanket prohibitions, rooted in reputations of the 1950’s or older, blue collar unions. At least that is what I think. Unions have changed, we haven’t. Surprising, I know.

Interestingly, the last ultra conservative minister I spoke with said they have members in their church that are part of a union... They have to be here in Canada if they want to be able to practice being nurses.

[ohio jones]

All my dairy farmer relatives work on Sunday's for example. Yet no Mennonite church has ever questioned their choice of profession. A strict reading of the 10 commandments might lead one to conclude that dairy farming is inconsistent with the 3rd Commandment. Yet that never seems to be an issue ever, and I don't think a single Mennonite sect has ever questioned dairy farming ever.

I was going to make this point in the Graven Images thread, but it seems to fit here too. What we call the second commandment can also be thought of as an expansion of the first, rather than a separate commandment on its own, similar to the way the sabbath commandment (which then actually would be the third) has several additional sentences explaining the initial statement. Of course then there are only Nine Commandments.

Flipping back a few chapters to Exodus 16, it seems milk is not quite like manna, where sabbath production sours prematurely. Nor does it seem to work for dairy farmers to milk an extra time the day before and then take the day off.



During my high school years, I worked summers for a Mennonite pastor and dairy farmer. He did not milk on Sundays, but instead hired an Amish man (an arrangement that seemed to me rather like a Jewish shabbat goy) to do the milking that day.

[Neto]

I don't have links to anything about this, but I remember that during the 70's there were some strikes which resulted in violence, mostly against strike breakers, and some vandalism. The union I was pressured to join was a 'blue-collar' union - I doubt if teachers would generally be as physically confrontational as industry workers. I did think through the issue for myself at that time, and remember seeing some information from the union that did specifically refer to members as 'brother'. I rather doubt if most MB congregations still have standards about this.

Hi Neto. In our MB church we have this link to our detailed 'Confession of Faith' but I have not heard of any detailed 'standards' as referred to in what I bolded above. Do you have a link to some MB list beyond this or were you saying that local MB churches had certain specific instructions in areas written down somewhere ? I am not aware of any written list that exists in the MB organization beyond what this 'Confession of Faith' says.

https://www.mennonitebrethren.ca/mb-bel ... d-edition/

It was either a written congregational standard, or an unwritten one. Might well have been the latter. (Another item was to change the color of your hair. - Because the Scripture says that "you cannot make one hair of your head white or black".....)

[Sudsy]

It was either a written congregational standard, or an unwritten one. Might well have been the latter. (Another item was to change the color of your hair. - Because the Scripture says that "you cannot make one hair of your head white or black".....)

We had many unwritten but expected conformity standards when I grew up in classical Pentecostalism. The one we could never understand about the Mennonites was playing softball on Sundays. We were not allowed to even play catch. We attended 3 services on Sunday, the last one could be a 5 hour service, eat a big Sunday dinner, rest and read your bible and/or Sunday School papers, basically thats it. We also had various expected norms in dress, where you could go, what you could and could not participate in, etc. Many of these, perhaps most all, are no longer a policed way one must live as a Pentecostal. We also thought any change from being Pentecostal was a step down and in a worldly direction. Probably quite similar to some CAs. But I was raised with a woman pastor which would not fit the CAs. Women keeping silent in church was thought to be a cultural instruction for that early church period only and after when women were more educated in the scriptures they could teach. Well, I could go on and on with comparisons but won't.

I wonder if Jesus was to drop in today and look at what we have created in our customs (convictions ?) just which brand of Christianity, He would say, best reflects what He intended His Church to look like ? My guess it would be similar to the letters to the churches in the book of the Revelation. We all fall short and both who we call 'conservative' or 'liberal' are lacking in the furtherance of His Kingdom. Good thing He hasn't given up on us and is faithful to the end.

[Ken]

I wonder if Jesus was to drop in today and look at what we have created in our customs (convictions ?) just which brand of Christianity, He would say, best reflects what He intended His Church to look like ? My guess it would be similar to the letters to the churches in the book of the Revelation. We all fall short and both who we call 'conservative' or 'liberal' are lacking in the furtherance of His Kingdom. Good thing He hasn't given up on us and is faithful to the end.

He would probably offend everyone by hanging out with the unchurched and ministering to them.

[Sudsy]

I wonder if Jesus was to drop in today and look at what we have created in our customs (convictions ?) just which brand of Christianity, He would say, best reflects what He intended His Church to look like ? My guess it would be similar to the letters to the churches in the book of the Revelation. We all fall short and both who we call 'conservative' or 'liberal' are lacking in the furtherance of His Kingdom. Good thing He hasn't given up on us and is faithful to the end.

He would probably offend everyone by hanging out with the unchurched and ministering to them.

I suspect you are right. Jesus was willing to take the abuse of religious people who thought He needed to keep clear of sinners when He was out seeking to save them. In my experience so far in Anabaptism, this is an area that is not very Christ like. How many unchurched are being reached (born again) in the brand of Anabaptism we belong to ? Many don't like to face up to that question.

[JimFoxvog]

He would probably offend everyone by hanging out with the unchurched and ministering to them.

Not everyone. There are still Christians who do the same.