What has to happen? Reforming our culture

[Aurien]

Either that or we're really very good at going off on "rabbit trails."

Apparently you haven't heard of this thread yet.

We are so good at bunny trailing that we bunny trail the bunny trail thread.

[hillperson]

When I was age 6, I lied to my schoolteacher. I lived my childhood with this on my conscience. I was terrified that I would get a spanking if I confessed it. Getting a spanking would have been a much lighter punishment than living with a violated conscience. But that’s how a shame-based culture can enslave someone.

Was your experience because of a shame-based culture, or a culture that believed in consequences?

Would it have been better for you not to have expected any consequences for wrongdoing?

I think we're getting a bit off kilter here. This article explains the differences well.

Guilt-Shame-Fear spectrum of cultures

Generally, Christianity has been credited with the transition from a shame culture to a guilt on. Understanding the differences between these is an important part of the training many missionaries receive. If you'd like to understand your own culture, there's a good online survey at http://TheCultureTest.com.

Incidentally, I filled it out for myself based on how Holdeman culture seems to me and it had this result:

Your Group's Culture Type is:
52.0% GUILT 44.0% SHAME 4.0% FEAR

I would probably agree with that assessment.

80% guilt 12% shame 8% fear

I’m a conservative Anabaptist - I really don’t fit the stereotype. What’s with that? Maybe we’re not all alike!?!

[ohio jones]

80% guilt 12% shame 8% fear

I’m a conservative Anabaptist - I really don’t fit the stereotype. What’s with that? Maybe we’re not all alike!?!

Mine is 80% guilt, 16% shame, 4% fear.

I thought my results would be stereotypical. There might be multiple stereotypes. Dolbytypes, perhaps.

[steve-in-kville]

Plain People are good at producing all kinds of rumours and gossip.

My favorite of all time is one that circulates every ten years or so. Its the one where a young man from the "outside" is recruited by an amish bishop to impregnate amish women thereby infusing "fresh bloodlines" into the amish church. I'll spare the details!

[MaxPC]

I still would like some serious discussion on the original question.

The more important discussion is how are AB organizations going to respond to make sure that new JMasts don't creep into our midst and be given positions of unsupervised control over children. And how is AB culture going to evolve to make sure that these problems don't fester in secret like they have in the past.

Ken asks some salient questions here. This thread is for constructively discussing how we reform our culture to address the scourge of sexual abuse (and cover-up).

If I may, I would like to share how Catholic World is sorting through the same questions and perhaps this will help somewhat with your situation. Forthwith, the following as we have parsed our own failures in Catholic World:

1. Complacency: we forgot that ours is a life of discipleship that serves Jesus, not a culture. That discipleship requires vigilance as the spirit is in a pitched battle against the temptations of the flesh. We find that we need to replace complacency with vigilance (1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.)

2. That complacency seeped into every aspect of our Catholic culture. It made us comfortable, and that love of comfort coupled with denial/shame/pride led to cover-ups: rocking the boat was not on the agenda and we did not want to know or were afraid to know the truth.

3.We spoke of sacrifices but we were not making the most difficult sacrifice of all: removing sexual abusers. These were likable men, very charismatic, and we tried to rehabilitate them instead of removing the "offending hand" (abuser), we sought out advice on how to rehabilitate "the hand" in a false sense of mercy (that really was an effort to save us from our shame). To continue the metaphor, sexual abuse is gangrene and once it infects a person, the person must be cut off and kept away from future victims. To be fair, up until the 1990s rehabilitation and relocation of the abuser was the recommendation given by psychologists and psychiatrists. Since the 1990s those professions have been acknowledging that sexual abusers cannot be cured, only controlled through external means. (I believe that Jesus was trying to tell us this: that there are besetting sins that cannot be cured, only controlled when he said in Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.)

4. In particular that complacency spawned by comfort and lack of humility impacted our seminaries that trained priests in the 1940s-1980s. Poor training led to lax lives that did not serve Jesus. It led to inadequate, even bad leadership (Cardinals and Bishops) and bad ministry by those trained in those seminaries.

5. Our ministers whether they were priests or Bishops, viewed their service as a career; rather than a life discipleship and self-sacrificing leadership in the example of Jesus.

What we are doing now to reform and revive our discipleship life in the Catholic Church:

Since our realization of these things, we have seen the removal of priests and a Cardinal who have since been defrocked.

We have set into place procedures to protect the innocent and to make it easier to report such evil practices.

We are in the process of setting those same accountability measures into place for our Bishops.

We have reformed and continue to reform our seminaries who are now teaching our priests that this is a life of discipleship, service and sacrifice: not a career move.

Some of our Bishops are now taking much more brave actions to eradicate bad influences in our parochial schools (most recent was the mandate to remove teachers who are openly living in a homosexual relationship).

Those same Bishops are taking a stand for our teachings and refusing communion for politicians who support abortion and homosexuality.

This reform in our Church is not done and dusted. It will be ongoing. As fallible humans we work until we think something is fixed and then we relax, we want to take a vacation from the stress: all in spite of the warning we are given in 1 Peter 5:8 that we can never again relax and become complacent. Yet we relax nevertheless and another reform will be needed as sins will creep into our midst that damage us as a church and a community.

We are at war with evil sins of the flesh, gentlemen. If we do not learn, reform and renew, then we will be cut off as well and replaced as Jesus reminds us in Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

[Josh]

My is 52%; 44%; 4% - exactly like Josh. But some of the questions were not relevant but needed to be answered. So why wasn't my rating closer to RZehr and GaryK. I think I think like they do (but I am older).

I still would like some serious discussion on the original question.

Josh said he was answering based on his understanding of Holdeman thinking. Perhaps OO Mennonite and Holdeman culture are quite similar.

It’s also hard to be realistic about your own group as an insider born into it; the questionnaire was designed primarily for missionaries trying to understand a foreign culture.

The survey is not a terribly scientific instrument; I hope everyone read the articles on the Guilt-Shame-Fear types of cultures and is trying to understand where I am coming from.

[Robert]

IF people don't want to discuss the original question is it because they don't think CA culture needs reformed?

Not sure. What have you worked to reform in your church and community?

It is often easy to post things on a forum. It is much harder and impactful to actually follow through and do something. People do resist change.

Change comes with the pain to stay the same is worse than the pain to change.

[steve-in-kville]

I have this over in the Links thread. It was in a local paper this morning. I think it applies here as well.

https://www.readingeagle.com/news/artic ... ing-crisis

[Aurien]

IF people don't want to discuss the original question is it because they don't think CA culture needs reformed?

Not sure. What have you worked to reform in your church and community?

It is often easy to post things on a forum. It is much harder and impactful to actually follow through and do something. People do resist change.

Change comes with the pain to stay the same is worse than the pain to change.

Currently I have neither a church nor a community. Unless you mean a "secular" community that comprises my neighbors and such.

[GaryK]

IF people don't want to discuss the original question is it because they don't think CA culture needs reformed?

Not sure. What have you worked to reform in your church and community?

It is often easy to post things on a forum. It is much harder and impactful to actually follow through and do something. People do resist change.

Change comes with the pain to stay the same is worse than the pain to change.

Currently I have neither a church nor a community. Unless you mean a "secular" community that comprises my neighbors and such.

What reforms would it take for you to come back to this culture?