CAM Molestation Issue

[Neto]

While I am very much moved on behalf of victims in cases like this, I didn't appreciate the tone of the "blog post". I am not defending CAM - I have had disagreements with their policies in the past, and I have heard from former staff about other issues. But let's not do a "Smollett" knee-jerk reaction.

I think it's time to stop shooting the messenger. This situation spans back over a decade. If it had been dealt with properly, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen.

If you had been dealing with this better, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen. That's true for all of us. None of us dealt with this properly, protected the victims, brought CAM to account, or brought any of this into the light of day. We thus have zero right - absolutely none - to criticise the blog post.

And I have strong confidence the blog post is almost entirely true. The author has a lot of credibility, and CAM and the church the perpetrator belongs to, and the plain Anabaptist community at large, do not have a lot of credibility right now.

Josh, I wrote this before the CAM statement was made public. I am just now seeing this, and haven't listened to their statement yet. I don't think I said anything that could be honestly construed as "shooting the messenger". I will also say that I have never heard any thing about any of this until this thread appeared here. I don't know Jeriah, and I only know a few people involved at CAM. (I did apply to work there as a translation consultant more than ten years ago, but was never contacted after the initial interview. I have also, as a part of a group from our congregation, helped 'stuff envelopes' there on a few occasions. That is the extent of my contact with CAM.) I don't know if the 'you' in "If you had been dealing with this better, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen." is singular second person, but the context of a response to what I had said suggests that it is, even though I strongly suspect that you did not intend it that way.

I could go back and quote the parts of the blog post that bothered me (in respect to the tone of the statement), but I don't see any benefit in that, so I will not attempt to explain any further.

Regarding volunteer workers not being properly vetted, I'll recount one situation that happened while we were living in Brazil. A short-term volunteer, a man in his seventies, came down from the States to help out. (I don't recall what type of work he did.) He had previously worked short term in another Wycliffe branch, and unless he just started acting off track when he came to Brazil, there should have been a report about him from the other mission branch, which then should have prevented his involvement in Brazil. He asked me if the Indians in our village wore clothes, because, as he said, he "wanted to go someplace where they didn't wear clothes, to take pictures." He told my wife that she reminded him of "an old girlfriend". He made all of the women so uncomfortable, that they all made sure that no one would ever be left alone with him. One Sunday afternoon a (Brazilian) congregation from town was having a retreat at our mission center. I was standing in the street talking with our pilot and two of the Brazilian pastor's daughters. This guy came up and just stood there, not saying anything because we were talking in Portuguese, which he did not know. After awhile he pops up (in English) with "I'm just so happy to be standing here talking with these beautiful girls." I didn't know until then that the girls knew English, but they were very embarrassed. I will say, though, that while I held no leadership role on the mission center at that time, I'm quite sure that a report went back to headquarters about him.

[Judas Maccabeus]

While I am very much moved on behalf of victims in cases like this, I didn't appreciate the tone of the "blog post". I am not defending CAM - I have had disagreements with their policies in the past, and I have heard from former staff about other issues. But let's not do a "Smollett" knee-jerk reaction.

I think it's time to stop shooting the messenger. This situation spans back over a decade. If it had been dealt with properly, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen.

If you had been dealing with this better, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen. That's true for all of us. None of us dealt with this properly, protected the victims, brought CAM to account, or brought any of this into the light of day. We thus have zero right - absolutely none - to criticise the blog post.

And I have strong confidence the blog post is almost entirely true. The author has a lot of credibility, and CAM and the church the perpetrator belongs to, and the plain Anabaptist community at large, do not have a lot of credibility right now.

Josh, I wrote this before the CAM statement was made public. I am just now seeing this, and haven't listened to their statement yet. I don't think I said anything that could be honestly construed as "shooting the messenger". I will also say that I have never heard any thing about any of this until this thread appeared here. I don't know Jeriah, and I only know a few people involved at CAM. (I did apply to work there as a translation consultant more than ten years ago, but was never contacted after the initial interview. I have also, as a part of a group from our congregation, helped 'stuff envelopes' there on a few occasions. That is the extent of my contact with CAM.) I don't know if the 'you' in "If you had been dealing with this better, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen." is singular second person, but the context of a response to what I had said suggests that it is, even though I strongly suspect that you did not intend it that way.

I could go back and quote the parts of the blog post that bothered me (in respect to the tone of the statement), but I don't see any benefit in that, so I will not attempt to explain any further.

Regarding volunteer workers not being properly vetted, I'll recount one situation that happened while we were living in Brazil. A short-term volunteer, a man in his seventies, came down from the States to help out. (I don't recall what type of work he did.) He had previously worked short term in another Wycliffe branch, and unless he just started acting off track when he came to Brazil, there should have been a report about him from the other mission branch, which then should have prevented his involvement in Brazil. He asked me if the Indians in our village wore clothes, because, as he said, he "wanted to go someplace where they didn't wear clothes, to take pictures." He told my wife that she reminded him of "an old girlfriend". He made all of the women so uncomfortable, that they all made sure that no one would ever be left alone with him. One Sunday afternoon a (Brazilian) congregation from town was having a retreat at our mission center. I was standing in the street talking with our pilot and two of the Brazilian pastor's daughters. This guy came up and just stood there, not saying anything because we were talking in Portuguese, which he did not know. After awhile he pops up (in English) with "I'm just so happy to be standing here talking with these beautiful girls." I didn't know until then that the girls knew English, but they were very embarrassed. I will say, though, that while I held no leadership role on the mission center at that time, I'm quite sure that a report went back to headquarters about him.

I should hope so. Should have been put on the next plane out, for his own protection. We had occasional oddballs on my station, but that one takes the cake.

J.M.

J.M.

[Wade]

I think it's time to stop shooting the messenger. This situation spans back over a decade. If it had been dealt with properly, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen.

If you had been dealing with this better, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen. That's true for all of us. None of us dealt with this properly, protected the victims, brought CAM to account, or brought any of this into the light of day. We thus have zero right - absolutely none - to criticise the blog post.

And I have strong confidence the blog post is almost entirely true. The author has a lot of credibility, and CAM and the church the perpetrator belongs to, and the plain Anabaptist community at large, do not have a lot of credibility right now.

I tend to agree much with you in this Josh. Although I cannot say I am sure about any credibility.

What I want to know from all the CA's :Is it common practice for sexual abuse to go unreported to the police in the CA world?

In the atheist home I grew up in I was told the only way you could tell if someone was sorry is if they turn themselves over to the police for a crime like this. I was also told that if they don't, and I know, then it is my responsibility to turn them in.

I believe in two kingdoms so when I apply

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I understand that to mean to report such a person to the other kingdom or police as my parents taught me. So why I am I hearing that this doesn't get dealt with in the CA world?

Could someone help me to understand why these people get forgiven/protected?

What about

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And I mean this with complete compassion for the perpetrator, I'm not looking for justice, but what about all the claims about accountability in the CA world? His suffering in prison would likely help him repent more than being reconciled to the church but clearly not reconciled to God.

As a seeker one of the biggest draws to the Conservative Anabaptists is the accountability instead of some lukewarm church. CAM failed completely by ever supporting this guy from the start and lacking accountability - I don't know how I can continue to support such an organisation?

[mike]

I think it's time to stop shooting the messenger. This situation spans back over a decade. If it had been dealt with properly, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen.

If you had been dealing with this better, the blog post wouldn't have had to happen. That's true for all of us. None of us dealt with this properly, protected the victims, brought CAM to account, or brought any of this into the light of day. We thus have zero right - absolutely none - to criticise the blog post.

And I have strong confidence the blog post is almost entirely true. The author has a lot of credibility, and CAM and the church the perpetrator belongs to, and the plain Anabaptist community at large, do not have a lot of credibility right now.

I tend to agree much with you in this Josh. Although I cannot say I am sure about any credibility.

What I want to know from all the CA's :Is it common practice for sexual abuse to go unreported to the police in the CA world?

In the atheist home I grew up in I was told the only way you could tell if someone was sorry is if they turn themselves over to the police for a crime like this. I was also told that if they don't, and I know, then it is my responsibility to turn them in.

I believe in two kingdoms so when I apply

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I understand that to mean to report such a person to the other kingdom or police as my parents taught me. So why I am I hearing that this doesn't get dealt with in the CA world?

Could someone help me to understand why these people get forgiven/protected?

What about

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And I mean this with complete compassion for the perpetrator, I'm not looking for justice, but what about all the claims about accountability in the CA world? His suffering in prison would likely help him repent more than being reconciled to the church but clearly not reconciled to God.

As a seeker one of the biggest draws to the Conservative Anabaptists is the accountability instead of some lukewarm church. CAM failed completely by ever supporting this guy from the start and lacking accountability - I don't know how I can continue to support such an organisation?

It is a mixed situation. I think that many conservative Anabaptists have valued church discipline and accountability above the government's ability to help in situations of abuse. I know of numerous situations where the police were notified and the perpetrators went to prison or were at least interviewed by authorities. But for each of these cases there are probably many more where the matter was dealt with internally in some way. Many conservative Anabaptist groups appear to developing in their view of reporting abuse cases to the police, and I would guess that today it is far more likely than 20 years ago that abuse cases will be reported. Such events as the widely attended Anabaptist Symposium on Sexual Abuse Awareness indicate that there is a united effort among plain Anabaptists to understand how to better understand and deal with abuse.

[MaxPC]

It is a mixed situation. I think that many conservative Anabaptists have valued church discipline and accountability above the government's ability to help in situations of abuse. I know of numerous situations where the police were notified and the perpetrators went to prison or were at least interviewed by authorities. But for each of these cases there are probably many more where the matter was dealt with internally in some way. Many conservative Anabaptist groups appear to developing in their view of reporting abuse cases to the police, and I would guess that today it is far more likely than 20 years ago that abuse cases will be reported. Such events as the widely attended Anabaptist Symposium on Sexual Abuse Awareness indicate that there is a united effort among plain Anabaptists to understand how to better understand and deal with abuse.

Thank you for posting that link. I think this symposium can enlighten and inform those outside of Anabaptist circles as well.

Sexual abuse has always been a problem in religious and indeed, any human circles: these major issues are cyclical it seems Abuse - reform -complacency & denial - abuse repeats itself, a besetting sin that plagues all of mankind. Vigilance and action are always, always necessary regarding abuse. It will never go away but must be dealt with anew in each generation. Complacency and denial allows it to flourish.

I am sure many here can point up the Scripture verses where sexual abuse is decried.

In Catholic World, we see this problem addressed repeatedly from the very beginning. Below is an excerpt from an article addressing this topic. Warning: some fierce language is involved.

But in the ancient Catholic Church, the punishments for clergy who sexually preyed on victims were not as relatively urbane as these modern approaches.

Saint Basil the Great, a Doctor of the Church, writing in the 4th-century, described how the early Catholic Church dealt with those guilty of sexual abuse among the clergy.

“Any cleric or monk who seduces young men or boys, or who is apprehended in kissing or in any shameful situation, shall be publicly flogged and shall lose his clerical tonsure. Thus shorn, he shall be disgraced by spitting in his face, bound in iron chains, wasted by six months of close confinement, and for three days each week put on barley bread given him toward evening. Following this period, he shall spend a further six months living in a small segregated courtyard in custody of a spiritual elder, kept busy with manual labor and prayer, subjected to vigils and prayers, forced to walk at all times in the company of two spiritual brothers, never again allowed to associate with young men.”

This harsh punishment may seem barbaric to the modern sensibility, but given the gravity of crimes of sexual nature, especially perpetrated by clergy, perhaps the time has come to listen to the wisdom of the Church Fathers and apply this type of justice.

In the 11th-century, another Doctor of the Church, Saint Peter Damian, stormed against the widespread clerical sexual abuse and sexual misconduct of the time. He decried the impunity with which bishops and abbots conducted themselves, as clerics were above, and not subject to the secular authorities.

In a letter to Pope Leo IX, Saint Peter Damian demanded reform, ecclesial accountability, that priests be handed over to secular authorities for punishment, and other actions to weed out the cancer of sexual abuse in the Church.

Aiming directly at the hierarchy who enabled such an environment, he wrote:

“Listen, you do-nothing superiors of clerics and priests. Listen, and even though you feel sure of yourselves, tremble at the thought that you are partners in the guilt of others; those, I mean, who wink at the sins of their subjects that need correction and who by ill-considered silence allow them license to sin. Listen, I say, and be shrewd enough to understand that all of you alike are deserving of death, that is, not only those who do such things, but also they who approve those who practice them.”
Article

[Josh]

It is baffling how such a person then gets endorsed by both his church and by CAM to be a missionary to a foreign country where he lacks regular oversight and has plenty of access to victims.

His father is a bishop. You want to believe the best about your children. I suppose it's none of my business, but I am curious what type of Anabaptist he is. I couldn't find his father in CLP's church directory.

It’s a Charity-esque type of “Christian Fellowship” sort of church.

Not particularly conservative and utterly without excuse for something like this to go on.

[Josh]

Such events as the widely attended Anabaptist Symposium on Sexual Abuse Awareness indicate that there is a united effort among plain Anabaptists to understand how to better understand and deal with abuse.

Unfortunately, that symposium had a significant number of people who I know have been involved in coverups and perpetrating the current system.

There is a “united effort” to prevent things like this from being seen in the light of day. We can see it in our culture in responses like Ernie’s, where he complains that Trudy Metzger was wrong to make the blog post public, and also makes a baseless allegation she lied in her blog post.

[Wade]

Ephesians 5:11
Paul says we should expose works of darkness. I'm definitely in favor of more accountability, more screening of Christian workers and more transparency among those who need to know about a person's background, etc.

I'm not in favor of publicizing the details of darkness. In verse 12 Paul says it is a shame to speak about the things "dark people" do in secret.

And of course the Bible often talks about bearing false witness and sharing perspectives and conclusions that are intended to put others in bad light. Some of this was done in the blog that hit the internet yesterday. Some of course was true.

I don't understand why people feel a need to judge quickly before knowing all the facts.
https://maxlucado.com/woodcutters-wisdo ... e-stories/

Some feel that irreparable damage has been done by not making a public statement earlier on. I can't speak to that.
From what I know of the more conservative Anabaptist supporters of CAM, they would not believe the first stories that hit the web and they would be willing to wait for a report from someone they trust.

You can call people judgemental but the fact is likely many of us had sponsorships or donations to CAM. So we can carry a level of responsibility in this too if we don't pull out.
Since CAM isn't willing to hold people accountable if CA's don't pull out I think they maybe in trouble with Romans 1:32. that makes me even more sick feeling. It can look they accept sexual abuse as okay or they are desensitized to it because it is so commonplace?
What ever happened to standing up for right?
I always thought real men of integrity had no problem walking out for truth and right... And Christ calls us to that anyway - see Luke 13!

[mike]

Such events as the widely attended Anabaptist Symposium on Sexual Abuse Awareness indicate that there is a united effort among plain Anabaptists to understand how to better understand and deal with abuse.

Unfortunately, that symposium had a significant number of people who I know have been involved in coverups and perpetrating the current system.

What I understood Ernie to say is that some of what was said is true and there were some inaccuracies. I believe this is very possible. Trudy Metzger's blog posts, and folks' posts and comments on social media, are not the inspired word of God. We have snippets of information but none of us, her included, knows all the information. I am not going to place my full and complete trust in any person's perspective and knowledge.

I think we should focus on what is not in dispute, and not quibble over details. I don't believe that either Trudy or CAM is intentionally lying. All parties in this situation are deeply hurting and are in difficult straits, and are trying to navigate the situation as best they can, some working with victims, some with the perpetrator and his family, and some with the severe effects this has for CAM. I will accept that all parties are at least trying to proceed in good faith unless there is evidence otherwise.

The real problem in this situation is Jeriah Mast and he must bear the primary responsibility. Don't forget that. There are people who want to see CAM or Trudy or other involved parties discredited. Motives like that are a distraction.

Situations like this bring out all the instant experts, armchair quarterbacks, and folks who want to destroy or hurt people, groups of people, or organizations for other reasons. Scandals are red meat for people with a prior agenda. I read Trudy's writing with an open mind and respect her work but I assume she does not know everything or interpret everything correctly, just like any other human.

There is a “united effort” to prevent things like this from being seen in the light of day. We can see it in our culture in responses like Ernie’s, where he complains that Trudy Metzger was wrong to make the blog post public, and also makes a baseless allegation she lied in her blog post.

I understand Ernie to be expressing his opinion that the "details of darkness" should not be publicized. That is a valid opinion and worthy of discussion. If you feel otherwise I think you should explain your view.

Also, you say his claim of inaccuracies is baseless, but you also are not God, and don't know everything. In accusing Ernie of baseless allegations you are doing the very same thing. Be careful about what you're saying.

[Signtist]

Ok. Right now I am trying really hard not to be angry. That so many people knew or had suspicions of past failings and yet he was allowed to serve. Folks, when will we wake up?

Not for a while yet. We're stirring, but not ready to be fully awake.