Watercolor painting and artistic expression

[mike]

“”She recently posted a pic of herself painting a watercolor and then implied that artistic expression was something she didn't have the freedom to do when she was a Mennonite. ””

Say what????

This shoots credibility in the foot,

I do not know who this person is or what church she was part of, but there certainly are Mennonite churches in which artistic expression is highly restricted.

I think she hails from the Hope circles.

Her parents may have been Mennonite Christian fellowship at one point, but I believe in her growing up years they were with a Cumberland Valley Conference church. Which is similar to Hope. At some point though, her parents separated and one of them remarried. Regardless, I don't think either of these groups restrict things like watercolor painting, although MCF is quite conservative. I was MCF from around 10-18 years old and I don't remember any rules on such things. My wife was part of Cumberland Valley as a child, and took oil painting classes. We are with Hope now and I haven't seen anything like that.

[the-real-steve]

Her parents may have been Mennonite Christian fellowship at one point, but I believe in her growing up years they were with a Cumberland Valley Conference church. Which is similar to Hope. At some point though, her parents separated and one of them remarried. Regardless, I don't think either of these groups restrict things like watercolor painting, although MCF is quite conservative. I was MCF from around 10-18 years old and I don't remember any rules on such things. My wife was part of Cumberland Valley as a child, and took oil painting classes. We are with Hope now and I haven't seen anything like that.

Okay. I thought my older children said they remember her from Hope School. Not sure where the wires got crossed.

[HondurasKeiser]

Can you think of an example to aid me in my response?

Maybe fireworks shows?

Yes, my city spends about $350,000 each year for 40 minutes of spectacular fireworks.
Another 350K plus is probably spent on travel by people coming to see the show.

Other examples...
-Nude paintings or sculptures
-Billion dollar cathedrals
-Giving one's life to musical development so as to be able to create musical pieces that are so complex that they are only accessible/beneficial to a few people. e.g. Late Romantic Polyphony, Dodecaphonic (12-Tone) Music, The Fugue

I tend to think that whatever one does, they should do with an eye towards excellence and beauty. As a rule my wife and I try to avoid allowing ugly things into our home, including the consumption of ugly art or content. We don't have a television but there is one animated show my young children are allowed to watch on Youtube because it is beautifully drawn, the stories are wholesome and good and the accompanying music is delightful as well. So much of what children consume, including in their storybooks, seem to be made deliberately ugly. I think our post-postmodern moment is deeply sinister in the way that it infects the consciousness of children. It instills nihilism, which is exactly the opposite of what pursuing Beauty does.

Some of the musical examples that you give strike me as examples of artists giving themselves over to nihilism and the destruction of form in the name of freedom. We might call it anti-art. There is talent there to be sure and even glimpses of pleasantness, but the artists have turned their backs on the pursuit of Beauty as such and have thus turned inward toward a solipsistic pursuit of self. In an attempt to be free from the forms, they've destroyed the ability to convey meaning and thus have turned ugly because they've cut themselves off from the source. This is, incidentally, the same path Lucifer chose - beginning as the most beautiful and "light-full' of all creation and through his exaltation of self and in the name of liberation became the most twisted and dark of all creation. Your examples of Late Romantic Polyphony and the related Dodecaphonic Music are anti-art - even someone like Mahler is moving in an anti-art direction. But examples abound from the various fields: Brutalism in architecture, Lolita by Nabakov, anything painted by Marcel Duchamp, Rite of Spring in both music and the ballet - when that was debuted in 1913 the audience was scandalized:

Some eyewitnesses and commentators said that the disturbances in the audience began during the Introduction, and grew noisier when the curtain rose on the stamping dancers in "Augurs of Spring". But Taruskin asserts, "it was not Stravinsky's music that did the shocking. It was the ugly earthbound lurching and stomping devised by Vaslav Nijinsky."[61] Marie Rambert, who was working as an assistant to Nijinsky, recalled later that it was soon impossible to hear the music on the stage.[62] In his autobiography, Stravinsky writes that the derisive laughter that greeted the first bars of the Introduction disgusted him, and that he left the auditorium to watch the rest of the performance from the stage wings. The demonstrations, he says, grew into "a terrific uproar" which, along with the on-stage noises, drowned out the voice of Nijinsky who was shouting the step numbers to the dancers.

Art, pursued for pride and freedom turns ugly and meaningless. Christians shouldn't pursue or be patrons to such art. We should also be careful with how we consume it. For example, there's something deeply unsettling to me about watching the Rite of Spring ballet. I find it horrifying but think it's good to know what turns the art world took 100 years ago in service to an anti-philosophy. Likewise, reading Nabakov is deeply unwise because its debasing.

The other examples you mention seem either like efforts in frivolity (fireworks displays) or pursuits in ostentatiousness. Billion dollar cathedrals are ostentatious and miss the point. However, when I am in France I love nothing more than attending mass in some of the old churches and cathedrals in Lyon. When I visit NYC I like to attend mass at Saint Patrick's (though I did have the good fortune to also attend meeting at Barnhart's church once too). I think we can and should pursue beauty and art that is in line with our Mennonite beliefs always with an eye towards avoiding pride, liberation, individualism and ostentation and excess.

[barnhart]

HK, I agree with much of what you say although I have more appreciation for what you might think of as degraded or anti-art. Jackson Pollock and The Rite of Spring are bringing clarity to shifts in philosophy that had occurred but were not yet obvious. In that way they were on the side of truth and honesty if not beauty. I think Picasso's Guernica is horrendous but it is a true and prophetic illustration of the coming horrors of mechanized war.

[HondurasKeiser]

HK, I agree with much of what you say although I have more appreciation for what you might think of as degraded or anti-art. Jackson Pollock and The Rite of Spring are bringing clarity to shifts in philosophy that had occurred but were not yet obvious. In that way they were on the side of truth and honesty if not beauty. I think Picasso's Guernica is horrendous but it is a true and prophetic illustration of the coming horrors of mechanized war.

It might be interesting to discuss the modern and then the postmodern turn in art. They were prophets or harbingers in the shifting philosophy to be sure - the artists are always the most sensitive to changes in the zeitgeist. The philosophy itself though was anti-human and thus the art that heralded it was truly anti-human, truly ugly. I can appreciate Picasso and Duchamp and Stravinsky...maybe even Pollock....but I cannot call their work true or good or beautiful. And I don't even blame the artists necessarily; that art could only be produced in an anti-human, nihilistic civilization.

[JayP]

It is interesting to watch Anabaptists, particularly since just like hefalumps and Wolzells they come in every shape and size, discuss the arts. Of course, everyone is entitled to a pov, but while I can understand saying Picasso is ugly, calling it not true seems simply to prove the point you missed the point.

His Guernica is not to be viewed as pretty,. Like all art it expresses something. And you may dislike his techniques or style, but you cannot deny it expresses. And expresses something both important and expresses it in a moving and accurate way.

Many Anabaptists simply have their hands tied on issues like this.

[HondurasKeiser]

It is interesting to watch Anabaptists, particularly since just like hefalumps and Wolzells they come in every shape and size, discuss the arts. Of course, everyone is entitled to a pov, but while I can understand saying Picasso is ugly, calling it not true seems simply to prove the point you missed the point.

His Guernica is not to be viewed as pretty,. Like all art it expresses something. And you may dislike his techniques or style, but you cannot deny it expresses. And expresses something both important and expresses it in a moving and accurate way.

Many Anabaptists simply have their hands tied on issues like this.

And what is Picasso expressing in Guernica?

[HondurasKeiser]

It is interesting to watch Anabaptists, particularly since just like hefalumps and Wolzells they come in every shape and size, discuss the arts. Of course, everyone is entitled to a pov, but while I can understand saying Picasso is ugly, calling it not true seems simply to prove the point you missed the point.

His Guernica is not to be viewed as pretty,. Like all art it expresses something. And you may dislike his techniques or style, but you cannot deny it expresses. And expresses something both important and expresses it in a moving and accurate way.

Many Anabaptists simply have their hands tied on issues like this.

I did not equate Beautiful with “pretty”.

[Soloist]

Wife: that looks like where’s Waldo or one of those style of art . I’ve never been fond of picassos stuff other than maybe starry night style. Other than mentioning da Vinci in history class, I don’t know that the school goes that much into art history. It’s not like I went through the school myself


Pilgrim and Western Fellowship don’t seem to have any issues with painting ect. I remember a seeker who made some beautiful watercolor paintings back out west that he gave People. Also, some of my friends doing watercolor.

Here, a lot of of the girls are really into pretty calligraphy mottos with colorful art around it, or those one adult coloring books. There’s also a few people I know that do portrait drawing, and the schools have used all sorts of mediums during art classes. My personal favorite was when they were doing woodburning, and also hoping my girls get in on a cake decorating class.

Also, furniture/cabinetry art is kind of cool and I’ve also known some people who repaint old furniture.

[joshuabgood]

Some might say Picasso impressively captures the fragmented society that modernity brought. In a sort of jarring way, the art illustrates the break down of community, beauty, and civility. And captures the impact of tech on the world. And in that sense, while he is a modern artist, it hints at post-modernity.