A Mennonite view of divorce and remarriage

[RZehr]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

Matthew 14:3-4

[GaryK]

It seems to me Jesus is implying in this verse that it shouldn't be called marriage but rather adultery. What is the definition of adultery?

Breaking the marriage. And certainly marrying someone else breaks your first marriage.

Where do you find this definition for adultery?

[Bootstrap]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

Matthew 14:3-4

3 For Herod had seized John and bound him and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, 4 because John had been saying to him, “It is not lawful for you to have her.”

It's his brother's wife, and there's no indication that she is not still married to him. What makes you think Herod had married her at this time?

[Bootstrap]

Breaking the marriage. And certainly marrying someone else breaks your first marriage.

Where do you find this definition for adultery?

In the Bible, adultery is used very frequently as an analogy for breaking our covenant with God. And it is the sole grounds for divorce. If adultery is grounds for divorce, then I assume you would have grounds for divorce if your wife married someone else too, since Jesus calls that adultery.

FWIW, the German word for adultery is Ehebruch, "breaking the marriage".

And being faithful to your first marriage is more than sex. If you are still married to your first spouse for life, your primary responsibility is to still be married, doing what Paul tells husbands to do.

[Josh]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

Luke 16:18
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

It seems to me Jesus is implying in this verse that it shouldn't be called marriage but rather adultery. What is the definition of adultery?

Apparently, looking at a woman with lust is also "adultery". Jesus is using hyperbole to explain how doing things with bad motives is very very bad.

He doesn't say at all what someone in one of these relationships should do.

[Bootstrap]

I'm trying to understand how sex while still married is grounds for divorce, but marrying someone else without grounds is not, since Jesus calls that adultery.

[RZehr]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

Matthew 14:3-4

3 For Herod had seized John and bound him and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, 4 because John had been saying to him, “It is not lawful for you to have her.”

It's his brother's wife, and there's no indication that she is not still married to him. What makes you think Herod had married her at this time?

Josephus says here: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2848/pg2848.txt that Herodias divorced Herod. Is this the same Herod as in Matthew 14? If not then I may be wrong.

But if we know that she divorced him on one hand, and Johns phrase of "not lawful for you to have" on the other, then for them to be married seems to be the most straight forward, simple explanation of the account.

[RZehr]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

Luke 16:18
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

It seems to me Jesus is implying in this verse that it shouldn't be called marriage but rather adultery. What is the definition of adultery?

Apparently, looking at a woman with lust is also "adultery". Jesus is using hyperbole to explain how doing things with bad motives is very very bad.

He doesn't say at all what someone in one of these relationships should do.

From a Biblical standpoint it's possible to have five husbands, and presumably possible to be divorced by some or all of them.

Just as He used hyperbole there to explain lust, I believe He was using coloquial language in John 4:18 in using the word husband. I don't think the lesson of John 4:18 is that each of those 5 marriages were legitimate or not. Maybe she didn't divorce them, maybe she did, and maybe they died.

Either way I don't think Jesus use of the word husband is a very strong argument for the question of what constitutes a legitimate marriage.

[Bootstrap]

3 For Herod had seized John and bound him and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, 4 because John had been saying to him, “It is not lawful for you to have her.”

It's his brother's wife, and there's no indication that she is not still married to him. What makes you think Herod had married her at this time?

Josephus says here: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2848/pg2848.txt that Herodias divorced Herod. Is this the same Herod as in Matthew 14? If not then I may be wrong.

But if we know that she divorced him on one hand, and Johns phrase of "not lawful for you to have" on the other, then for them to be married seems to be the most straight forward, simple explanation of the account.

I think it is the same Herodias, but when Josephus tells it, I can't tell if Herod was married at the time that John said this. The marriage would not have been lawful under Jewish law regardless, so it may not matter. But there is also a lot going on here - how many different reasons can you list that this is badly, badly wrong?

1. About this time Aretas [the king of Arabia Petres] and Herod had a
quarrel on the account following: Herod the tetrarch had, married the
daughter of Aretas, and had lived with her a great while; but when he
was once at Rome, he lodged with Herod, [15] who was his brother indeed,
but not by the same mother; for this Herod was the son of the high
priest Sireoh's daughter. However, he fell in love with Herodias, this
last Herod's wife, who was the daughter of Aristobulus their brother,
and the sister of Agrippa the Great. This man ventured to talk to her
about a marriage between them; which address, when she admitted, an
agreement was made for her to change her habitation, and come to him as
soon as he should return from Rome: one article of this marriage also
was this, that he should divorce Aretas's daughter. So Antipus, when he
had made this agreement, sailed to Rome; but when he had done there
the business he went about, and was returned again, his wife having
discovered the agreement he had made with Herodias, and having learned
it before he had notice of her knowledge of the whole design, she
desired him to send her to Macherus, which is a place in the borders of
the dominions of Aretas and Herod, without informing him of any of her
intentions. Accordingly Herod sent her thither, as thinking his wife
had not perceived any thing; now she had sent a good while before to
Macherus, which was subject to her father and so all things necessary
for her journey were made ready for her by the general of Aretas's army;
and by that means she soon came into Arabia, under the conduct of the
several generals, who carried her from one to another successively;
and she soon came to her father, and told him of Herod's intentions. So
Aretas made this the first occasion of his enmity between him and Herod,
who had also some quarrel with him about their limits at the country of
Gamalitis. So they raised armies on both sides, and prepared for war,
and sent their generals to fight instead of themselves; and when they
had joined battle, all Herod's army was destroyed by the treachery of
some fugitives, who, though they were of the tetrarchy of Philip, joined
with Aretas's army.. So Herod wrote about these affairs to Tiberius, who
being very angry at the attempt made by Aretas, wrote to Vitellius to
make war upon him, and either to take him alive, and bring him to him in
bonds, or to kill him, and send him his head. This was the charge that
Tiberius gave to the president of Syria.

[GaryK]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

Luke 16:18
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

It seems to me Jesus is implying in this verse that it shouldn't be called marriage but rather adultery. What is the definition of adultery?

Apparently, looking at a woman with lust is also "adultery". Jesus is using hyperbole to explain how doing things with bad motives is very very bad.

He doesn't say at all what someone in one of these relationships should do.

What is the adultery Paul talks about when he says adulterers will not be in the KOG? Isn't that a pretty clear warning to get out of adulterous relationships.