Watercolor painting and artistic expression

[barnhart]

I'm not convinced "elitism" in pursuit of art is necessarily a bad thing. My sister paints portraits for a career and has won awards at high level of her craft, she has done portraits for the federal courthouse, her work is truly elite, very expensive and represented by an agent. She is not getting rich because each piece represents a massive time investment. I'm not sure what is wrong about this.

That would be a difference between plain people in general and not-plain people in general. Overall, plain people have a distaste for elitism, even if it is a problem in many plain circles.

If one wants to embrace elitism, one can certainly do so (and make a case for it), but it represents a departure from plain Anabaptism overall. One of the tensions in the plain world is the handful of groups which have tried to partially embrace elitism (such as attending universities) versus the vast majority that generally have rejected it.

Your plain-ness seems quite elite.

[JohnH]

Your plain-ness seems quite elite.

The attitudes and demeanour of plain people often comes across as elitist or proud (which is the preferred term plain people use to refer to elitism), which is certainly a quandary for plain people. Plain people often have a very distorted idea of how non-plain people view them.

For an example, many plain people would be very concerned about appearing proud by attending a tertiary educational institution and attaining a degree. A person once expressed this to me. I later learned the institution in question was a mid tier community college and the degree was an associates’; two things not highly esteemed in the world, yet within the plain world, they would feel concern that pursuing such might look proud to outsiders. (There is a certain irony that the only people who would highly esteem such would be other plain people.)

Another example is concern about what witness having stock chrome wheels would present to the world. I can say with confidence that non plain people would not consider such a thing proud at all.

[mike]

I heard (second-hand) from someone on the board at Shenandoah Music Camp that they consider the elitism there a real problem, to the point of discussing just shutting the whole thing down.

One of the reasons plain Anabaptists tend to be sceptical of the arts is beacuse of the association with elitism. We don't think that shows good Christian character and is not a virtue. The world tends to think it is.

That would be unfortunate, because if one is put in a position where one is expected to lead congregational worship, they can teach you enough so you don't fall flat on your face. I just sent a young man there for that reason. Some of us who are not musically gifted need the help.

For conservative Anabaptists, the idea that we should get together and learn how to do what we do better is not unique to the field of music at all. Music camps where everyone from children to older adults study music and sing together are very much like other things in the Anabaptist world. I'm in the grocery business, and there we have trade shows, seminars, reunions, and other get-togethers where store owners and employees learn how to do their business better. In finace, there's all the training from Anabaptist Financial seminars across the country. In education, we have everything from a few days to weeks long teacher training and of course college-level study at places like Faith Builders. Penn Valley holds event after event designed for people to handle all sorts of life situations better.

Now, perhaps the field of art is a whole different thing from the field of work, but for many it overlaps. Teachers for example, or church music directors or choir directors. But there are a lot of similarities between growing in work skill and growing in the arts, and the dangers of elitism are similar in each as well. What we need is for people with advanced skills in professions, trades, crafts, and arts to not let their accumulated knowledge isolate them from others in their community, and to use that knowledge to benefit the kingdom of God.

[joshuabgood]

What we need is for people with advanced skills in professions, trades, crafts, and arts to not let their accumulated knowledge isolate them from others in their community, and to use that knowledge to benefit the kingdom of God.

We do need this. And we need the "others in the community" to be willing to actually listen to the doctors in their midst, the professional musicians, and others who have highly developed skill. What sometimes happens is a sort of "pooing pooing" of these folks.

FWIW - the elitism I am opposed to is where there is a downward looking from those with highly developed skills, towards others. I am not against elitism where that means excellence. Like Mike mentioned, we have no problem with top quality excellence in cabinetry, construction, etc. We are unabashed about it. But one at times gets resistance if one wants to be a professional/excellent person in the singing/education/art/theology/philosophy/fiction writing/ or other liberal arts sphere.

[ken_sylvania]

We do need this. And we need the "others in the community" to be willing to actually listen to the doctors in their midst, the professional musicians, and others who have highly developed skill. What sometimes happens is a sort of "pooing pooing" of these folks.

That actually depends on what the professionals are saying. A person isn't necessarily better qualified to answer the question of "what is good music" just because he is a professional musician. Just as a person isn't necessarily better qualified to speak to moral issues related to end of life care just because he is a doctor.

[barnhart]

I think JBG is suggesting that elitism and anti- intellectualism have some things in common.

I recall an anecdotal story of an old mountain preacher expounding 1 Corinthians one by saying God uses the foolish to confound the wise. "I praise God I'm just an ignorant preacher and I would praise him even more if I were ignorant-er".

[mike]

We do need this. And we need the "others in the community" to be willing to actually listen to the doctors in their midst, the professional musicians, and others who have highly developed skill. What sometimes happens is a sort of "pooing pooing" of these folks.

That actually depends on what the professionals are saying. A person isn't necessarily better qualified to answer the question of "what is good music" just because he is a professional musician. Just as a person isn't necessarily better qualified to speak to moral issues related to end of life care just because he is a doctor.

This reminds me of what a very good musician and choral director (well-known these days in Anabaptist musical circles) said when asked what he thought of fiddle playing. "That's not music." That right there is an example of an elitist attitude in my view.

[joshuabgood]

We do need this. And we need the "others in the community" to be willing to actually listen to the doctors in their midst, the professional musicians, and others who have highly developed skill. What sometimes happens is a sort of "pooing pooing" of these folks.

That actually depends on what the professionals are saying. A person isn't necessarily better qualified to answer the question of "what is good music" just because he is a professional musician. Just as a person isn't necessarily better qualified to speak to moral issues related to end of life care just because he is a doctor.

This reminds me of what a very good musician and choral director (well-known these days in Anabaptist musical circles) said when asked what he thought of fiddle playing. "That's not music." That right there is an example of an elitist attitude in my view.

Exactly. But it is another type of arrogance that summarily dismisses what those highly trained in specific fields have to say on their given subjects. When you think about it, arrogance underlies both elitism and anti-intellectualism, as Barnhart pointed out. But respect needs to flow both ways.

[mike]

That actually depends on what the professionals are saying. A person isn't necessarily better qualified to answer the question of "what is good music" just because he is a professional musician. Just as a person isn't necessarily better qualified to speak to moral issues related to end of life care just because he is a doctor.

This reminds me of what a very good musician and choral director (well-known these days in Anabaptist musical circles) said when asked what he thought of fiddle playing. "That's not music." That right there is an example of an elitist attitude in my view.

Exactly. But it is another type of arrogance that summarily dismisses what those highly trained in specific fields have to say on their given subjects. When you think about it, arrogance underlies both elitism and anti-intellectualism, as Barnhart pointed out. But respect needs to flow both ways.

Sure, I agree.

[the-real-steve]

“”She recently posted a pic of herself painting a watercolor and then implied that artistic expression was something she didn't have the freedom to do when she was a Mennonite. ””

Say what????

This shoots credibility in the foot,

I do not know who this person is or what church she was part of, but there certainly are Mennonite churches in which artistic expression is highly restricted.

I think she hails from the Hope circles.