Either make a separate thread or don’tSudsy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:18 pm Perhaps the next thing we should discuss on this head covering thread besides speaking in tongues would be the holy kiss and if this, too, is just an NT practise or for all time. It appears to be a command as much as other verses are thought to be commands. And then perhaps if men raising holy hands in prayer is just a NT practise or not. It is interesting to me how obedience can be so important and emphasized but just what is required to be obedient and what is not can't be agreed on. I guess we'll never have that literal in practise and belief 'glorious church without spot or wrinkle'.
I still think these should all be kept as separate threads and disagree that it was me that got this one off unto speaking in tongues.
Head covering question
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Soloist
Re: Head covering question
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Valerie
Re: Head covering question
No. As Soloist at least acknowledged above, it is not just speaking foreign language, as he can see, Apostle Paul is speaking of the gift of tongues that one can have that can edify oneself, which is as the Word says, "speaking to God mysteries" and or in a church environment where there are those with the gift of interpretation. And no- this didn't begin in 1900-1910, perhaps it revived again because of people of faith reading God's word, desiring the gifts as Apostle Paul SAID to do, and the Holy Spirit was poured out again- Joel 2 as Sudsy mentioned, first fulfilled in Acts 2. If churches shyed away from the gifts, so be it, but please refrain from trying to teach something that you simply have not the understanding or experience, none of us are infallible so consider YOU are ignoring many passages- I have read and learned these having become Born Again in a Church that does understand and thank the Good Lord I now have found Anabaptists that also understand and believe. Soooo refreshing!!Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 9:56 amYou simply continue to ignore inconvenient passages that refute your position.Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:38 amWrong. There is more than one kind- you ignore 1 Corinthians 12-14. Common mistake.Josh wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:14 am We see speaking in tongues in Acts when people heard the gospel in their own language.
We don’t see speaking gibberish anywhere in the NT. Part of having an “interpretation” means speaking in tongues - that is a foreign language - where someone can understand it.
Tongues in Acts different purposes more than one purpose. Pray for the understanding rather than mistakes
You wonder why people question if Anabaptists truly can rightly divide the word of truth and trust they interpret all things correctly? Why people may start the seeking but then realize they are guessing at some things or perhaps blind to some things? Would we then want to trust the Spirit is enlightening them,? A child could understand the simple teachings, the milk, but then there is the meat.
I cannot pursue a group of willful blindness to the things of the faith, I can see they have a piece of the pie of course- and probably a better piece than most- but not the whole. Of course God will not judge us on knowledge alone, but teaching against Apostolic teaching, is sin IMHO.
See you are just as guilty as believing incorrect teachings as those have we n been taught incorrectly about covering. Covering is easy. Faith for gifts is challenging. Easy to dismiss and criticize.
1 Cor 14:21-22. 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Which quotes:
Isiah 28:11. 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Paul is clearly saying here this (tongue speaking, more correctly language speaking) is that (a fulfillment of a prophecy to unbelieving Israel) I do, and cannot understand the eccentric understand that the tongue speaking movement has. To produce some sort of babbling is clearly not a fulfillment of this prophecy.
The tongue speaking movement dates only from the 1900-1910 period. It is very new in the context of Christian Theology.
Did I not hear someone a couple of topics ago pushing Eastern Orthodox as the one true church? Now it is tongues. They are inconsistent with each other. I could give some advice here, but running after the latest new thing will seldom result in peace with God and your church. I cannot fathom how someone will find peace in this manner.
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Ernie
Re: Head covering question
Do you encourage people to practice all these things? Or do you like talking about the things you do that others don't in order to make yourself look better? What is good for the goose is good for the gander, right?Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:18 pm Perhaps the next thing we should discuss on this head covering thread besides speaking in tongues would be the holy kiss and if this, too, is just an NT practise or for all time. It appears to be a command as much as other verses are thought to be commands. And then perhaps if men raising holy hands in prayer is just a NT practise or not. It is interesting to me how obedience can be so important and emphasized but just what is required to be obedient and what is not can't be agreed on. I guess we'll never have that literal in practise and belief 'glorious church without spot or wrinkle'.
I still think these should all be kept as separate threads and disagree that it was me that got this one off unto speaking in tongues.
If you want to discuss individual practices, please start another thread or continue a thread on the topic.
Holy Kiss: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4702
Speaking in Tongues: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5483
Lifting Holy Hands: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7074
Submersion baptism: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4452
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Sudsy
Re: Head covering question
Yes, I try to look better than those who don't do as I do. I'm trying to fit in with others who do the same.Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 4:06 pmDo you encourage people to practice all these things? Or do you like talking about the things you do that others don't in order to make yourself look better? What is good for the goose is good for the gander, right?Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:18 pm Perhaps the next thing we should discuss on this head covering thread besides speaking in tongues would be the holy kiss and if this, too, is just an NT practise or for all time. It appears to be a command as much as other verses are thought to be commands. And then perhaps if men raising holy hands in prayer is just a NT practise or not. It is interesting to me how obedience can be so important and emphasized but just what is required to be obedient and what is not can't be agreed on. I guess we'll never have that literal in practise and belief 'glorious church without spot or wrinkle'.
I still think these should all be kept as separate threads and disagree that it was me that got this one off unto speaking in tongues.
If you want to discuss individual practices, please start another thread or continue a thread on the topic.
Holy Kiss: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4702
Speaking in Tongues: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5483
Lifting Holy Hands: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7074
Submersion baptism: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4452
No, I don't encourage people to do all these things as I don't think all these things are relevant today.
I just think we should try to respect the OP and what they are wanting to talk about. I am prone to wander myself but don't mind if this is pointed out to me. The OP brought up an individual practise and asked for opinions on it. Imo, it really is nice to keep to the OP request.
But this is just my opinion and preference and so I shared it. Everyone is free to do as they please until they go beyond what the monitors allow.
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Re: Head covering question - pleated cap query
I don’t really know my way around MennoNet, and I haven’t been able to find a previous post clearly addressing my confusion, so I’ve decided to place my very elementary “head covering” questions in this forum. I am addressing MennoNet participants whose female members of their household regularly practice head covering.
First of all, I am not a person with Anabaptist roots. This leaves me sometimes quite confused when it comes to the subject of head coverings. I am not questioning the concept of a covering or veil for sisters in the faith. It seems right. What I am questioning is the origin of the current covering or veil styles. It seems to me that the vast majority of head coverings worn by Anabaptist women are a see-through “pleated” cap.
My first question is this:
I’ve seen pictures of veiled women in the 1500s, even non-Anabaptists, but what is the origin of the present day “pleated” cap? The coverings or veils I’ve seen depicted from the 1500s seem to be of styles other than pleated caps. To me, it seems such a covering was probably not in Europe, for I haven’t seen witness of it being promoted there. Also, it doesn’t seem logical to me that such a covering would be actively practiced in the this region during the time of persecution because it would draw the attention of the persecutors, resulting in great harm or even death. Where, why, and how did the pleated cap arrive on the scene?
My second question is this:
Seeking to determine the meaning of the cap or veil, I’ve resorted to a Strong’s Interlinear. Strong’s defines the covering in 1 Corinthians 11 as “to cover wholly, i.e. veil: — cover, hide.” I notice the concepts of covering “wholly” and to “hide.” Where does this start and stop? I’ve seen all sorts of pleated caps that cover only a portion, sometimes only a very small portion, of the head. How is this reconciled with Strong’s definition that seems to say to cover the “whole” head or all of the hair?
My third question is this:
Searching conversations at MennoNet, I’ve noticed references to a mesh covering, sometimes of a see-through fabric. How does this “hide”?
To declare the head covering as merely symbolic of something seems counter to my understanding of Strong’s interpretation of the original language.
Not being born into an Anabaptist tradition, I find myself rather confused. Would someone be willing to help me out with this? While my questions might appear foolish, I am quite unsure what to make of all this. Please guide me gently along the way.
First of all, I am not a person with Anabaptist roots. This leaves me sometimes quite confused when it comes to the subject of head coverings. I am not questioning the concept of a covering or veil for sisters in the faith. It seems right. What I am questioning is the origin of the current covering or veil styles. It seems to me that the vast majority of head coverings worn by Anabaptist women are a see-through “pleated” cap.
My first question is this:
I’ve seen pictures of veiled women in the 1500s, even non-Anabaptists, but what is the origin of the present day “pleated” cap? The coverings or veils I’ve seen depicted from the 1500s seem to be of styles other than pleated caps. To me, it seems such a covering was probably not in Europe, for I haven’t seen witness of it being promoted there. Also, it doesn’t seem logical to me that such a covering would be actively practiced in the this region during the time of persecution because it would draw the attention of the persecutors, resulting in great harm or even death. Where, why, and how did the pleated cap arrive on the scene?
My second question is this:
Seeking to determine the meaning of the cap or veil, I’ve resorted to a Strong’s Interlinear. Strong’s defines the covering in 1 Corinthians 11 as “to cover wholly, i.e. veil: — cover, hide.” I notice the concepts of covering “wholly” and to “hide.” Where does this start and stop? I’ve seen all sorts of pleated caps that cover only a portion, sometimes only a very small portion, of the head. How is this reconciled with Strong’s definition that seems to say to cover the “whole” head or all of the hair?
My third question is this:
Searching conversations at MennoNet, I’ve noticed references to a mesh covering, sometimes of a see-through fabric. How does this “hide”?
To declare the head covering as merely symbolic of something seems counter to my understanding of Strong’s interpretation of the original language.
Not being born into an Anabaptist tradition, I find myself rather confused. Would someone be willing to help me out with this? While my questions might appear foolish, I am quite unsure what to make of all this. Please guide me gently along the way.
4 x
Re: Head covering question
Many Anabaptist churches think a solid material is closer to biblical teaching. Amish, Mennonites and many others.
There are few who think a cap is somehow better than other styles. Some groups will hang on to traditions and insist it must be the done the way it was in the 1950s. I understand their point of view but don’t agree that is the pinnacle of Christian practice
There are few who think a cap is somehow better than other styles. Some groups will hang on to traditions and insist it must be the done the way it was in the 1950s. I understand their point of view but don’t agree that is the pinnacle of Christian practice
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Re: Head covering question - pleated cap query
Your questions are very typical for people not growing up in traditional Anabaptist settings and are even typical for some of us who did grow up in traditional Anabaptist settings. I wish more traditional Anabaptists asked these questions. The questions are not foolish at all.Donny D wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:38 pm First of all, I am not a person with Anabaptist roots. This leaves me sometimes quite confused when it comes to the subject of head coverings. I am not questioning the concept of a covering or veil for sisters in the faith. It seems right. What I am questioning is the origin of the current covering or veil styles. It seems to me that the vast majority of head coverings worn by Anabaptist women are a see-through “pleated” cap.
My first question is this:
I’ve seen pictures of veiled women in the 1500s, even non-Anabaptists, but what is the origin of the present day “pleated” cap? The coverings or veils I’ve seen depicted from the 1500s seem to be of styles other than pleated caps. To me, it seems such a covering was probably not in Europe, for I haven’t seen witness of it being promoted there. Also, it doesn’t seem logical to me that such a covering would be actively practiced in the this region during the time of persecution because it would draw the attention of the persecutors, resulting in great harm or even death. Where, why, and how did the pleated cap arrive on the scene?
My second question is this:
Seeking to determine the meaning of the cap or veil, I’ve resorted to a Strong’s Interlinear. Strong’s defines the covering in 1 Corinthians 11 as “to cover wholly, i.e. veil: — cover, hide.” I notice the concepts of covering “wholly” and to “hide.” Where does this start and stop? I’ve seen all sorts of pleated caps that cover only a portion, sometimes only a very small portion, of the head. How is this reconciled with Strong’s definition that seems to say to cover the “whole” head or all of the hair?
My third question is this:
Searching conversations at MennoNet, I’ve noticed references to a mesh covering, sometimes of a see-through fabric. How does this “hide”?
To declare the head covering as merely symbolic of something seems counter to my understanding of Strong’s interpretation of the original language.
Not being born into an Anabaptist tradition, I find myself rather confused. Would someone be willing to help me out with this? While my questions might appear foolish, I am quite unsure what to make of all this. Please guide me gently along the way.
Flowing veils was the common way Christian women covered their hair until about the time of the Reformation when women began bunching them together. This evolved into bonnets.
https://scrollpublishing.com/head-covering/
Eventually women wore an inner bonnet and an outer bonnet. The inner bonnet (kapp in German) was white and the outer bonnet was different colors. The covered head for women was still based on I Corinthians 11. Eventually in the 1800's, women began wearing see through bonnets and Mennonites, Amish, and Brethren began adopting the see-through white inner bonnets (kapps) around the beginning of the 1900's. Since then, many Anabaptist groups have frozen the practices of the early 1900's and keep wearing the see through headcoverings, while more traditional groups like the Amish in Ohio and Indiana and the Old Order River Brethren have maintained opaque white headcoverings.
The Charity movement in the 1980's reintroduced flowing opaque veils among conservative Anabaptists to be more consistent to actually covering the head, and eventually many Beachy Amish-Mennonites and Keystone Fellowship Mennonites also adopted the practice. In more recent decades, some Pilgrim Conference women and Hope Fellowship women have started wearing opaque bonnets/caps/kapps in order to be more consistent as well.
The small headcoverings are the result of teaching that a "symbol must be worn" rather than teaching that the "covered head is a symbol".
Both the mesh headcoverings and small headcoverings are what happens when people follow tradition but lose the principle behind it. But this is not a new problem. Already in the second century AD Tertullian wrote:
I hope this helps answer the questions."If she thinks that her veil is enough when it is only a small covering for the head, she deceives herself, for she has not fulfilled the commandment of God."
But if she wear it only in part, and not that which is fitting, then she is not truly covered, for the covering should extend down to the ears.
4 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
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Judas Maccabeus
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2024 9:16 am
- Affiliation: KMF
Re: Head covering question - pleated cap query
Yes, Ernie, here in KMF more opaque coverings are becoming far more common for women that wear Kapps, (Including my wife) but them being more covering is not the only reason, and in many cases may not even be the main reason. Asked my wife, the really thin organdy ones simply are more difficult to pin, crush irreparably far more easily, and simply do not last. The ones made of more opaque material are simply easier to wear.Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 8:08 pmYour questions are very typical for people not growing up in traditional Anabaptist settings and are even typical for some of us who did grow up in traditional Anabaptist settings. I wish more traditional Anabaptists asked these questions. The questions are not foolish at all.Donny D wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:38 pm First of all, I am not a person with Anabaptist roots. This leaves me sometimes quite confused when it comes to the subject of head coverings. I am not questioning the concept of a covering or veil for sisters in the faith. It seems right. What I am questioning is the origin of the current covering or veil styles. It seems to me that the vast majority of head coverings worn by Anabaptist women are a see-through “pleated” cap.
My first question is this:
I’ve seen pictures of veiled women in the 1500s, even non-Anabaptists, but what is the origin of the present day “pleated” cap? The coverings or veils I’ve seen depicted from the 1500s seem to be of styles other than pleated caps. To me, it seems such a covering was probably not in Europe, for I haven’t seen witness of it being promoted there. Also, it doesn’t seem logical to me that such a covering would be actively practiced in the this region during the time of persecution because it would draw the attention of the persecutors, resulting in great harm or even death. Where, why, and how did the pleated cap arrive on the scene?
My second question is this:
Seeking to determine the meaning of the cap or veil, I’ve resorted to a Strong’s Interlinear. Strong’s defines the covering in 1 Corinthians 11 as “to cover wholly, i.e. veil: — cover, hide.” I notice the concepts of covering “wholly” and to “hide.” Where does this start and stop? I’ve seen all sorts of pleated caps that cover only a portion, sometimes only a very small portion, of the head. How is this reconciled with Strong’s definition that seems to say to cover the “whole” head or all of the hair?
My third question is this:
Searching conversations at MennoNet, I’ve noticed references to a mesh covering, sometimes of a see-through fabric. How does this “hide”?
To declare the head covering as merely symbolic of something seems counter to my understanding of Strong’s interpretation of the original language.
Not being born into an Anabaptist tradition, I find myself rather confused. Would someone be willing to help me out with this? While my questions might appear foolish, I am quite unsure what to make of all this. Please guide me gently along the way.
Flowing veils was the common way Christian women covered their hair until about the time of the Reformation when women began bunching them together. This evolved into bonnets.
https://scrollpublishing.com/head-covering/
Eventually women wore an inner bonnet and an outer bonnet. The inner bonnet (kapp in German) was white and the outer bonnet was different colors. The covered head for women was still based on I Corinthians 11. Eventually in the 1800's, women began wearing see through bonnets and Mennonites, Amish, and Brethren began adopting the see-through white inner bonnets (kapps) around the beginning of the 1900's. Since then, many Anabaptist groups have frozen the practices of the early 1900's and keep wearing the see through headcoverings, while more traditional groups like the Amish in Ohio and Indiana and the Old Order River Brethren have maintained opaque white headcoverings.
The Charity movement in the 1980's reintroduced flowing opaque veils among conservative Anabaptists to be more consistent to actually covering the head, and eventually many Beachy Amish-Mennonites and Keystone Fellowship Mennonites also adopted the practice. In more recent decades, some Pilgrim Conference women and Hope Fellowship women have started wearing opaque bonnets/caps/kapps in order to be more consistent as well.
The small headcoverings are the result of teaching that a "symbol must be worn" rather than teaching that the "covered head is a symbol".
Both the mesh headcoverings and small headcoverings are what happens when people follow tradition but lose the principle behind it. But this is not a new problem. Already in the second century AD Tertullian wrote:
I hope this helps answer the questions."If she thinks that her veil is enough when it is only a small covering for the head, she deceives herself, for she has not fulfilled the commandment of God."
But if she wear it only in part, and not that which is fitting, then she is not truly covered, for the covering should extend down to the ears.
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Re: Head covering question
Thank you for helping me better understand the history of the head covering. I have begun to examine resources listed at Scroll Publishing. Hopefully, I will gain a better understanding. Again, thank you!
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