Farewell, MCUSA

[Sudsy]

Another thing that comes to mind is how some who major on promoting peace in the world and are against warring end up warring amongst themselves over what is and what is not sinning and split away from each other. Seems to me our battle is one of our own flesh and pride that gets in the way of showing tough love and real heart concern for one another. Not all and I think some do have genuine concerns out of Christ like love but imo, much concern is about church memberships, which, as they have been developed, is not scriptural, in my understanding of the early church.

And speaking of unscriptural , formal church membership with all it's statement of faith, church covenants and rules of conduct is no more scripturally based as is also non-immersion water baptisms and evidence in being baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So, it isn't hard to find practises today that were not early church practises among Anabaptists and others.

It is interesting how one can view things in Scripture so profoundly different and can justify their own positions without trouble.
How do you justify your own practices that were not in the early church and directly taught against?
Clearly I disagree with the early church on how far to take church authority, I disagree with the Mennonites on pouring but I would think that isn't very important. The baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is said, but so is being baptized in the name of Jesus so I would see those differences as not important either.

Rules and conduct were certainly in the early church and so was statements of faith.

To the question I underlined in your post - You would have to be more specific about what you are referring to by my practises. Regarding homosexual engagements, I believe they are sinful as are many other sins specifically listed in the scriptures.

Regarding what is and what is not important, although, for instance, the early church baptised 'in Jesus name' and there is no occasion written that they baptised as Jesus said in Mathew 28, how do you reconcile that ? Was Peter and others disobeying (sinning) to not take what Jesus said literally or perhaps the Oneness Pentecostals got this right by saying what Jesus was saying meant in His name ? Or do we just conclude it was not 'very important' and we disregard the NT practise in favour of Jesus commandment ?

I believe we have instructions in the NT that are literally applicable today and others are not although we may apply these differently today. For instance, foot washing and the holy kiss are two that come to mind. The first there is no need for today yet the humbly serving one another still is a practise. The holy kiss today in our culture could be quite misleading and taken as a homosexual act between two men. But a hearty handshake would convey the same act of fellowship without the appearance of a sinful relationship.

I am more of the opinion on the thread topic that Robert and Barnhart expressed. And when I talked about 'tough love' I meant it as something we do out of love for one another at the risk of the receiver not liking it and perhaps losing a friend. It is 'tough' in that our flesh may resist threatening a friendship over desiring the best for the other. We all sin and sometimes the Holy Spirit works through another believer when we shut Him out of the conviction He whispers to our hearts. If we walk in the Spirit we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This, to me, should be what we pursue and encourage each other to do.

If one can't tolerate same sex relation people being accepted in the place one attends church, then move on. Are we following a denomination or the Lord ?

Here is an Anabaptist pastor who believes homosexual activity is a sin that needs to be repented of as do other sins and this goes back 10 years ago but this is how Woodland Hills church deals with the situation. Greg Boyd, senior pastor, explains how they work with these folk in what they call a 'Sacred Space' and they believe their way is a third way from the black and white approach.

https://reknew.org/2012/10/homosexualit ... third-way/

[temporal1]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA.
He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

i respect this.

[Sudsy]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA. He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

'Come out from among them' and be independent of affiliations and all these man made divisions and coalitions. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

As Paul told the Corinthians to knock it off with being a follower of this guy or that guy rather focus on following Christ. Many Anabaptists seem to have ignored Paul's direction to not be an 'ite' of some man associated with their beginnings. Perhaps this disobedience is sin in itself.

[Ernie]

As Paul told the Corinthians to knock it off with being a follower of this guy or that guy rather focus on following Christ. Many Anabaptists seem to have ignored Paul's direction to not be an 'ite' of some man associated with their beginnings.

Do you see a difference between "ite" and "ist"?

[ohio jones]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA. He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

'Come out from among them' and be independent of affiliations and all these man made divisions and coalitions. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

In my observation, it's the "independent" ones (whether individuals or congregations) that tend to become unbalanced in one way or another. I think it's really important to network with others who can provide accountability and resources and continuity. You might say it's one of my corps values.

[RZehr]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA. He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

'Come out from among them' and be independent of affiliations and all these man made divisions and coalitions. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

As Paul told the Corinthians to knock it off with being a follower of this guy or that guy rather focus on following Christ. Many Anabaptists seem to have ignored Paul's direction to not be an 'ite' of some man associated with their beginnings. Perhaps this disobedience is sin in itself.

So let’s contribute to the problem by becoming a denomination unto ourselves? We can’t unify with any existing church because of our insistence that others are too far off from our “truth”, and this way we can make the claim that there is too much division.
I’m not against dividing. But I can’t take seriously anyone who grumps about it, and then, in this era and land of unprecedented church options, refuses to find a church to join because they are too proud, or stubborn, or too theologically specialized, or whatever other reason they come up with.

[Ken]

I initiated a conversation with one of our church elders about our congregation changing affiliations and not being part of MC-USA. He will first read the passed documents and consider the nuances.

'Come out from among them' and be independent of affiliations and all these man made divisions and coalitions. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

As Paul told the Corinthians to knock it off with being a follower of this guy or that guy rather focus on following Christ. Many Anabaptists seem to have ignored Paul's direction to not be an 'ite' of some man associated with their beginnings. Perhaps this disobedience is sin in itself.

So let’s contribute to the problem by becoming a denomination unto ourselves? We can’t unify with any existing church because of our insistence that others are too far off from our “truth”, and this way we can make the claim that there is too much division.
I’m not against dividing. But I can’t take seriously anyone who grumps about it, and then, in this era and land of unprecedented church options, refuses to find a church to join because they are too proud, or stubborn, or too theologically specialized, or whatever other reason they come up with.

Exactly. My Bible tells me that greed is also a sin. Can you find me a church in which no members suffer from the sin of greed? I haven’t found one yet.

I’ve also found out over the years that the most boring people to be with are those who are exactly like me. And they tend to be those who I learn from the least. Part of the reason why I hang out here instead of forums where everyone thinks exactly like me.

[HondurasKeiser]

'Come out from among them' and be independent of affiliations and all these man made divisions and coalitions. He who the Son sets free is free indeed.

As Paul told the Corinthians to knock it off with being a follower of this guy or that guy rather focus on following Christ. Many Anabaptists seem to have ignored Paul's direction to not be an 'ite' of some man associated with their beginnings. Perhaps this disobedience is sin in itself.

So let’s contribute to the problem by becoming a denomination unto ourselves? We can’t unify with any existing church because of our insistence that others are too far off from our “truth”, and this way we can make the claim that there is too much division.
I’m not against dividing. But I can’t take seriously anyone who grumps about it, and then, in this era and land of unprecedented church options, refuses to find a church to join because they are too proud, or stubborn, or too theologically specialized, or whatever other reason they come up with.

Exactly. My Bible tells me that greed is also a sin. Can you find me a church in which no members suffer from the sin of greed? I haven’t found one yet.

I’ve also found out over the years that the most boring people to be with are those who are exactly like me. And they tend to be those who I learn from the least. Part of the reason why I hang out here instead of forums where everyone thinks exactly like me.

Can you find me a Mennonite church where greed is normalized and celebrated...where sin is called good?

[Ken]

So let’s contribute to the problem by becoming a denomination unto ourselves? We can’t unify with any existing church because of our insistence that others are too far off from our “truth”, and this way we can make the claim that there is too much division.
I’m not against dividing. But I can’t take seriously anyone who grumps about it, and then, in this era and land of unprecedented church options, refuses to find a church to join because they are too proud, or stubborn, or too theologically specialized, or whatever other reason they come up with.

Exactly. My Bible tells me that greed is also a sin. Can you find me a church in which no members suffer from the sin of greed? I haven’t found one yet.

I’ve also found out over the years that the most boring people to be with are those who are exactly like me. And they tend to be those who I learn from the least. Part of the reason why I hang out here instead of forums where everyone thinks exactly like me.

Can you find me a Mennonite church where greed is normalized and celebrated...where sin is called good?

There are plenty of churches that are just fine with wealthy members who devote their lives to acquisition, building businesses, expanding farms, etc. And who celebrate and promote such individuals into positions of church leadership. They don’t call it greed. They use other euphemisms like “work ethic”

[barnhart]

Anabaptism started as a schism. Its founding premise was freedom of conscience. One foundational tenant is that the church should be kept pure and free from sin. Anabaptists understood sin to keep the same definition, no matter which century one lived in.
Seems to me that if someone doesn't want to call sin, what the early Anabaptists/Mennonites commonly called sin, and if someone doesn't think that Anabaptists/Mennonites should schism over some members no longer calling something sin, that such folks should choose a different name than Anabaptist/Mennonite.

As I read it, a substantial minority agree more or less that same sex relations are sin, and they have born that witness as far as they can in that church. Now they should leave.

We are thinking alike. I was more addressing those who think schisms are wrong and lump all schisms into the same category. I think there are righteous schisms and sinful schisms.

Yes. I agree.