Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
joshuabgood

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by joshuabgood »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:15 am Nobody needs to feel “safe” to express they have adulterous desires. Instead, they need to ask Jesus to cleanse them from their sins and flee temptation.

Adultery should in fact feel very unsafe: adulterers should be of being outcast from their community, their family shunning them, their church condemning them, and ultimately eternal hellfire at the final judgment:

“ Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

There is no need for “safe space” for those who desire to do and talk about the above sins.
Confession is exactly that...expressing that you have wrong desires/actions. We need safe places for confession w/o judgement and condemnation. If we confess he is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse.

It almost feels you have a problem with the scandal of grace.
1 x
Josh

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by Josh »

By all means, go to the confessional. But a “safe space” is not a confessional.

A “safe space” is:

“The term safe space refers to places created for marginalized individuals to come together to communicate regarding their experiences with marginalization, most commonly located on university campuses in the western world, but also at workplaces.

The terms safe space (or safe-space), safer space, and positive space may also indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate violence, harassment, or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for marginalised people.”

A “safe space” is not a place for someone tempted by sodomy to seek help or confess his sins. If you want to say “confessional”, then by all means say so. Do you think your school should have confessionals?
0 x
joshuabgood

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by joshuabgood »

Do you think your school should have confessionals?
Yes. Our school should be a safe space for a confessional.
The terms safe space (or safe-space), safer space, and positive space may also indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate violence, harassment, or hate speech
I like this.

*Making the world a safer place is actually bringing salvation (same latin root, salvus, for safe and salvation) to earth as also in heaven. It is literally building the Kingdom of God. We do that through the lever of the cross of Jesus.
0 x
barnhart
Posts: 7751
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:59 pm
Location: Brooklyn
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by barnhart »

GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:42 am
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:50 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:11 pm
What did Jesus say our response to such things should be?
Good question. What does Jesus say about me treating you that way.

Jesus does teach suffering love as a response to evil, but not an excuse for evil. I think he would say I should treat you better rather than demand your long suffering.
I'm trying to understand where you are picking up from what I'm saying that I'm advocating that those who say and do evil things against others should demand suffering love in return.

Back in our child-training years (our youngest is 27) I made it a point to teach my children that while the mean things others may do to you is wrong and needs to be corrected, your response should be to return good for evil, because that's what Jesus taught.
JBG and I presume Mr. Guyton, I don't know him, express their determination to do what is within their ability to confront sin around them and shelter victims. This seems right and good and not in conflict with Jesus' teaching on suffering love. I may miss your point but it seems you are suggesting the two conflict.
0 x
HondurasKeiser

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:25 am
In this society it wasn't until 1919 or so, the year my grandmother was born, that women were thought "capable" of discerning who to vote for.
Hmm. As a plain Anabaptist, I don’t think Christians should vote. Worrying about women voting is analogous to if joshuabgood were gravely concerned that women aren’t subject to the military draft.

Josh, as a proponent of “suffering love”, do you think Christian woman should exercise their vote to right for and against candidates?
Lastly, in fact, I do advocate for safe spaces for people who deal with gender identify questions or homosexual predispositions. And yes, they are in our midst but usually don't feel safe to express what they are dealing with. And yes, in a school of near 400 students, over the course of 7 years, we have had students that fit that description, as well as parents. They are real people with names. They matter. They are image bearers.
… so you believe as a Christian you should create safe spaces where being openly homosexual or transsexual is tolerated, affirmed, and celebrated?

That’s what safe spaces are about and what they do. The reason I know is because I once too had a rainbow placquard pinned to my cubicle, advertising my domain as a “safe space”.
Right, the 'opening of a space' for marginalized voices is a praxis that comes out of the critical line of inquiry first explored by the Frankfurt School and that now abounds in the academy in the various 'critical theories'. The point of such a space is not simply to make one feel welcome or free to express themselves or even safe in the sense that, one might feel safe from violence there. That is a traditional (not critical) understanding of a place or institution that is open, liberal, tolerant or even a refuge. That is what JBG seems to be describing when he tells us the type of institution he's trying to build at EMS which I think by-and-large, is laudable. The critical use of 'Safe Space' however, trades on the traditional understanding of the idea as described above but smuggles in some, I think, rather terrible ideas that do nothing to draw people together in love and mutual discourse. This I think, is what made Admiral Achbon so uncomfortable back on page 1 of this thread. A 'Safe Space', as is commonly found on college campuses, must intentionally decenter or 'marginalize' heretofore centered or unmarginalized voices i.e. white, male, cis-gendered, heterosexual, able-ist, Christian, wealthy voices. Often these spaces are reserved exclusively for marginalized folk such that people from the 'oppressor' classes are forbidden to enter or hounded out if they do e.g. multicultural centers closed to white people, black and gay only graduations and gay/trans only events. The reason for both of theses moves (decentering dominate voices and marginal-only spaces) is because a space cannot be truly safe if there is a voice that questions the assumptions that a marginalized voice puts forth. Indeed, there can be no true dialogue between a member of an oppressed class and someone from the oppressor classes because there is no common-ground of Truth. The most that an oppressor-class person can do is take a learning/listening posture (read: keep quiet) and engage in self-reflection about their own inherited and unmerited privilege e.g. McIntosh's Knapsack Inventory, privilege walks, 'doing the work', engaging in ally-ship, etc. The more progressive spaces deny entrance to members of the oppressor classes lest their very presence make marginalized folk feel unsafe. Oft-times oppressor-class individuals can literally buy their way into these 'safe spaces' and we've seen this at work in the CHOP zone of Seattle and what are starting to become common, concerts and venues that charge more or only charge entrance fees for: white people, men, cis-folk, etc. Fundamentally a space that isn't celebratory, affirming, unquestioning and decentered is deemed 'unsafe' from a critical line of analysis and thus a place (say a non-welcoming/affirming church...or church school) that asks homosexuals to engage with biblical texts that are not supportive (to say the least) of homoerotic sex, or conforms to traditional notions of gender and pronoun use, or inquires about individual agency in black communities or declares abortion to be a moral horror, is doing literal violence to gay, trans, black and female (potential-pregnant-people?) bodies. There can be no room for mutual dialogue, mutual discernment of Truth and true, cross-group community because an oppressor-class person, speaking as he must from a cis-het-white-male-abled-Christian perspective, can only either stop speaking or continue to instantiate the various and interlocking systems of oppression that marginalized folk are trying to liberate themselves from. My perspective, my very identity is unsafe, is violence for and towards the marginalized of this world.
This then JBG is why, Josh, the Admiral and myself have offered such pushback against your doubling-down on the use of 'safe space' to describe the program you're enacting at EMS. Not because we disagree with your methods, broadly speaking, but because the term itself comes loaded with added layers of meaning that you, well-read and intelligent person that you are, are aware of and are either choosing to elide or ignore.
0 x
joshuabgood

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by joshuabgood »

This then JBG is why, Josh, the Admiral and myself have offered such pushback against your doubling-down on the use of 'safe space' to describe the program you're enacting at EMS. Not because we disagree with your methods, broadly speaking, but because the term itself comes loaded with added layers of meaning that you, well-read and intelligent person that you are, are aware of and are either choosing to elide or ignore.
I appreciate the tone and content of your assessment...and I think I understand it.

But I guess where I am is...I don't feel the need to concede good words/ideas like "safe places" merely because at times they are coopted amiss. Safety is good. Validation is good. Belonging is good. Confession is good. Reflection is good. Listening is good.

Also, I am of the mind to look for, and acknowledge, those pieces of social movements that have kernels of truth to them, and I believe all truth is anchored in God. So I am not afraid to validate portions of Marx's critiques. I am not afraid to validate portions of the hippie movement and their countercultural critique of modernity. I am not afraid to validate portions of the feminist movement. I am not afraid to validate some of the concerns of the LGBTQ advocates. And so on...There may be underlying principles, even if I don't agree with certain solutions and other critiques from various groups, that I can affirm. I don't feel fearful of affirming that. We should be concerned about poverty. We should be concerned about marginalized people. We should be concerned about the suicide rate of some groups. These people matter. They have names. They are image bearers.

I think the best strategy for us as followers of Jesus is to acknowledge truth wherever it is, be humble, and keep our eyes focused on our true north. If there are elements in a social theory/critique that align, or effectively describe social issues, then we can fearlessly acknowledge that and direct people to true north. Where conflicts emerge, again we align with true north. Violent revolution will not solve social ills Marx notwithstanding.
1 x
GaryK

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by GaryK »

barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:57 am
GaryK wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:42 am
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:50 pm
Good question. What does Jesus say about me treating you that way.

Jesus does teach suffering love as a response to evil, but not an excuse for evil. I think he would say I should treat you better rather than demand your long suffering.
I'm trying to understand where you are picking up from what I'm saying that I'm advocating that those who say and do evil things against others should demand suffering love in return.

Back in our child-training years (our youngest is 27) I made it a point to teach my children that while the mean things others may do to you is wrong and needs to be corrected, your response should be to return good for evil, because that's what Jesus taught.
JBG and I presume Mr. Guyton, I don't know him, express their determination to do what is within their ability to confront sin around them and shelter victims. This seems right and good and not in conflict with Jesus' teaching on suffering love. I may miss your point but it seems you are suggesting the two conflict.
Does confronting sin and sheltering victims imply teaching victims what Jesus taught about suffering love to you? It doesn't to me. What you are suggesting Mr Guyton is proposing is not much different than what is seen in the whole anti-racism ideology.

My point is that if "safe space" is what is proposed to victims of hateful speech as the best way to counter or to get away from hateful speech rather than Jesus' teaching on suffering love, then there is a problem. And as HK so aptly pointed out, the modern "safe space" idea is layered with ideas that are counter to Jesus' teachings. If there could be a Kingdom focused term coined for how its adherents should come along side victims of hateful speech and deeds rather than the modern "safe space" term, I think I could get on board.
0 x
joshuabgood

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by joshuabgood »

I see creating safe places for children/adults/marginalized peoples/etc involving the following:

1) Seeing each person as an image bearer of God and having inherent dignity and worth

2) Caring, with an empathetic love, for those that are hurting and have been wounded ...walking alongside and with them. (Not with a lens of just 'fixing them' or seeing them as projects). It is most healthy in my mind if this springs from empathy and our love for God (as they are made in his image) rather than a personal quest for our own "individual holiness" or "self improvement."

3) Confronting directly, and resisting forcefully, in the name of Jesus, in the power of the suffering love of the cross, evil, abuse, hate, violence, etc.

This is a critical part of what salvation is. It is a praxis. Salvation, safe, and save all involved "salvus" as the latin root. It is building the Kingdom of God on earth as also in heaven. *And no...I am not talking about physical violence or violent rebellion.

And all the politics about words associating with this or that political faction are all just distractions and red herrings in my mind. The true north is Jesus. Where any ideology corresponds with Jesus, I affirm it. Where it contradicts Jesus, I seek to resist it.
0 x
GaryK

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by GaryK »

joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:48 pm I see creating safe places for children/adults/marginalized peoples/etc involving the following:

1) Seeing each person as an image bearer of God and having inherent dignity and worth

2) Caring for those that are hurting and have been wounded with an empathetic love...walking alongside and with them. (Not with a lens of just 'fixing them' or seeing them as projects). It is most healthy in my mind if this springs from empathy and our love for God (as they are made in his image) rather than a personal quest for our own "individual holiness" or "self improvement."

3) Confronting directly, and resisting forcefully, in the name of Jesus, in the power of the suffering love of the cross, evil, abuse, hate, violence, etc.

This is the a critical part of what salvation is. It is a praxis. Salvation, safe, and save all involved "salvus" as the latin root. It is building the Kingdom of God on earth as also in heaven. *And no...I am not talking about physical violence or violent rebellion.

And all the politics about words associating with this or that political faction are all just distractions and red herrings in my mind. The true north is Jesus. Where any ideology corresponds with Jesus, I affirm it. Where it contradicts Jesus, I seek to resist it.
Do you see the modern safe space ideology, as HK described it, corresponding with Jesus? If not, then why not simply use NT biblical terms to describe your 3 points above rather than a term used in ideologies that are anti-Christ?
0 x
joshuabgood

Re: Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

Post by joshuabgood »

Do you see the modern safe space ideology, as HK described it, corresponding with Jesus? If not, then why not simply use NT biblical terms to describe your 3 points above rather than a term used in ideologies that are anti-Christ?
I don't think it is necessary to get caught in political "word wars," comrade Gary. I also value equity and equality. And I value a protestant work ethic and individual responsibility. It feels foolish to me to get caught up in political terminology either for or against. So I find myself not wanting to play that game at all. Safe places are good. I'd rather be like Tom Bombadil. (See if you get that reference =).
0 x
Post Reply