The Pregnancy Poll

[temporal1]

Josh:
So the question is... why are plain people, as a whole, capable of working in often manual labour jobs or other difficult jobs that don't pay that well, able to save up to buy a (modest) home, able to pay for their own private schools to educate their children, mostly avoid government assistance of all kinds, able to take care of their elderly without relying on Medicaid or Medicare, able to live on just one income instead of needing two? Why the sharp difference between them and America at large?

Not difficult.
The culture and community, including schools, educate for these outcomes. The expectations are for accountability and self sufficiency.

The outer culture teaches dependency, “you can’t,” etc. Also, debt is normalized, unsecured credit, student loans - all provided without proof of ability to repay. When i was young, that was unheard of. Even a small loan required substantial proof of repayment - before loan approval!

My granddaughter received her first credit card offer at age 2.

The world now swirls around the government! $$$

[Ken]

Good catch. We don't currently have any "single" families in our congregation. The last one died a few years ago, and her adult son is now married himself.

A few of the married moms do some odd jobs here and there. I can't think of any with young babies who do. There is one who is a skilled bookkeeper and a businessman offered to hire her part-time to work whatever hours she wished and also to arrange and provide for all childcare necessary and also transportation to/from childcare. She declined. As a simple matter, we have our priorities.

Our congregation is not an isolated example. Nearly all plain congregations have the same pattern where dad works, mom perhaps helps if it's a family business, but otherwise, we do not expect to have both parents working and children dumped in daycare. There is no need of "maternity leave" or special government programs to pay people to have kids. Most plain people avoid such programs, actually.

So the question is... why are plain people, as a whole, capable of working in often manual labour jobs or other difficult jobs that don't pay that well, able to save up to buy a (modest) home, able to pay for their own private schools to educate their children, mostly avoid government assistance of all kinds, able to take care of their elderly without relying on Medicaid or Medicare, able to live on just one income instead of needing two? Why the sharp difference between them and America at large?

This post is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.

I teach in a public HS and I can very much promise you that the vast majority of young women in our society are not interested in a world in which the only societal choice available to them is wife, mother, and making babies.

And if you think that “just live like the Amish is going to be a winning answer for most young women (or young men for that matter) then I would suggest you are extremely out of touch. There are a lot of *possible* ways to live in this world. One can live a frugal subsistence lifestyle on 5 acres of land. Or by living off seal meat and caribou in the tundra. But most people prefer to live in a world in which they have more freedom and opportunity, not less.

Furthermore, if that is the attitude towards young women in the workplace (that they should abandon their profession and career as soon as they get pregnant) it doesn’t surprise me at all that they would be reluctant to share their reproductive status with you until they are ready to do so on their own terms.

[Josh]

This post is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.

I teach in a public HS and I can very much promise you that the vast majority of young women in our society are not interested in a world in which the only societal choice available to them is wife, mother, and making babies.

Not all Anabaptist women are wives, mothers, or "making babies".

Some of them aren't married at all, like my business partner.

Some of them are married, but don't have any babies.

I will not comment further on your remark of "making babies".

On the whole, it seems most single Anabaptist women would prefer to be married, and then having a career or a business is a second (or third) choice for them (the second choice often is being a perennial schoolteacher, or going to various mission fields to teach, etc.). I'm fairly certain if my business partner encounters a marriage proposal she wants to accept, I'll be finding myself solo shortly thereafter.

And if you think that “just live like the Amish is going to be a winning answer for most young women (or young men for that matter) then I would suggest you are extremely out of touch. There are a lot of *possible* ways to live in this world. One can live a frugal subsistence lifestyle on 5 acres of land. Or by living off seal meat and caribou in the tundra. But most people prefer to live in a world in which they have more freedom and opportunity, not less.

I never said to "live like the Amish". I referred to plain people as a whole, which encompasses a wide variety of lifestyles.

Furthermore, if that is the attitude towards young women in the workplace (that they should abandon their profession and career as soon as they get pregnant) it doesn’t surprise me at all that they would be reluctant to share their reproductive status with you until they are ready to do so on their own terms.

Most Anabaptist women will quit their job once they're pregnant and far enough along because they consider taking care of their children a higher and more important thing to do with their life and time than prepare Excel spreadsheets for their boss, enter data into QuickBooks, key in data for tax forms and submit them to state web portals, conduct Zoom meetings, or whatever it is people do it at offices these days.

As far as "sharing reproductive status", amongst those who use smartphones, an announcement posted on WhatsApp is typical by the second trimester. (Sometimes quite a bit earlier, although I'm not sure I think that's a good idea.)

The point is, things like subsidised child care, "maternity leave", and all this other stuff isn't necessary. It just makes more sense to have 1 person earning full time and the other parent able to dedicate their focus to the home sphere and taking care of children, instead of trying to find servants to hire to do it for them. We aren't wealthy aristocrats who can afford a household staff to take care of our children for us, and it doesn't seem reasonable to expect the government to do so on our behalf.

[temporal1]

.. I teach in a public HS and I can very much promise you that the vast majority of young women in our society are not interested in a world in which the only societal choice available to them is wife, mother, and making babies. ..

^^understatement.
it’s gone too far, to the point children+teens learn early-on, wanting to be a wife and mother - isn’t good enough.
i wasn’t a teen in 1983, expecting our second, but, i definitely got the message from the world that being a stay at home mom wasn’t good enough! i was old enough to realize what was happening and be disgusted about it.

i felt very sorry for younger mothers.
think of the pressures! - young women are expected to get a full degreed education, professional career, all during their prime reproductive years - then, marry and start a family - by 30?! Many don’t make it until 40, bring on IVF, added health risks, etc., bedrooms become science laboratories. Great plan.

i have several real life examples of young teens i know who are belittled and shamed if they aren’t interested in being doctors or lawyers.

The sad result:
Too often, young people find themselves TOTALLY UNPREPARED to be spouses and/or parents.
The messages are that being a wife and mother - and father - “are nothing,” “everyone can do it,” etc. NOT TRUE.

It’s madness. And, just wrong. So much unnecessary misery.

gov schools are epi-centers for all this. how to escape it?!

[Ken]

.. I teach in a public HS and I can very much promise you that the vast majority of young women in our society are not interested in a world in which the only societal choice available to them is wife, mother, and making babies. ..

^^understatement.
it’s gone too far, to the point children+teens learn early-on, wanting to be a wife and mother - isn’t good enough.
i wasn’t a teen in 1983, expecting our second, but, i definitely got the message from the world that being a stay at home mom wasn’t good enough! i was old enough to realize what was happening and be disgusted about it.

You will note that nowhere did I write that “it isn’t good enough”. It is perfectly “good enough” and the first choice for many.

What I actually wrote is that young people want more choices rather than have society choose for them that being a wife and mother is the only path open to them. And I would suggest that anyone who thinks that isn’t true is completely out of touch with American society. Women currently attend college at substantially higher rates than men. And on average they generally do better than men and boys in school at all levels including college. That isn’t because they are all seeking Mrs. Degrees.

And no, it’s’ not just the public schools. It is society. You’ll find that many private schools are even more achievement oriented than public schools. For both boys and girls. And that is probably why most parents send their kids to private schools. Because they are seeking MORE achievement not less.

[temporal1]

“society”
society largely made up of products of public school education.
what’s wrong with the NYT? uhhhhh. who are they hiring?

i wanted to add ..
i don’t believe the primary function of public schools should be to teach/prepare students to be good spouses, parents, faithful church members. MY DREAM is that parents+churches would seriously step up these important goals, AND for public ed to refrain from working against these family and church goals. it’s a DREAM.

interesting-enough, the private schools i’ve experienced, somehow, mysteriously, manage to promote traditional families and faith AND high academic standards. these things are not mutually exclusive - except as presented by present government.

turns out, most are able to walk and chew gum.

[Josh]

What I actually wrote is that young people want more choices rather than have society choose for them that being a wife and mother is the only path open to them.

Who is talking about "being a wife and mother is the only path open to them"? I didn't, and I don't think anyone else in this thread has either.

And that is probably why most parents send their kids to private schools. Because they are seeking MORE achievement not less.

Yes, most Anabaptists operate our own schools because of the dismal shape public schools are typically in. We are well aware of that.

[Ken]

What I actually wrote is that young people want more choices rather than have society choose for them that being a wife and mother is the only path open to them.

Who is talking about "being a wife and mother is the only path open to them"? I didn't, and I don't think anyone else in this thread has either.

Oh, so you are a supporter of women having more workplace options even if it inconveniences you? Your comments on this thread basically fall into two categories: (1) dealing with pregnant women in the workplace is a hassle because it affects profits and the rest of us have to pick up the slack, and (2) asking why can't the rest of the world be more like plain Anabaptists where the men work and women stay at home to raise children.

And that is probably why most parents send their kids to private schools. Because they are seeking MORE achievement not less.

Yes, most Anabaptists operate our own schools because of the dismal shape public schools are typically in. We are well aware of that.

You will note that I wrote "most people". I've been around education long enough to know that the most common reason why most parents enroll their children in private schools is because they want to see more educational achievement and improve the chances that their kids will get into the right colleges and so forth. Not just the boys, but the girls too. Small plain Anabaptist schools are most definitely not representative of "most" private schools.

This isn't about criticizing plain Anabaptist society. This is about pointing out that that the vast majority of young women and young couples are not interested in living that lifestyle. And if you want to see a society that is more friendly towards young people getting married and having children then it is going to take more than simply lecturing young women about how they should live more like plain Anabaptists. And yes, it is going to mean imagining workplaces that are MORE accommodating of families, not less so. Even if it means less profits for shareholders. Since when is wealth accumulation the only goal of society?

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that many young women are very obsessive about how they time having children and that they are also circumspect about how they share the news of pregnancy in the workplace. Because we still don't live in a society in which the workplace is as accommodating to families as it could be.

[Josh]

Euro countries which have more accomodating laws about eg maternity leave and free medical care etc have lower birthrates than America does.

Oh, so you are a supporter of women having more workplace options even if it inconveniences you? Your comments on this thread basically fall into two categories: (1) dealing with pregnant women in the workplace is a hassle because it affects profits and the rest of us have to pick up the slack, and (2) asking why can't the rest of the world be more like plain Anabaptists where the men work and women stay at home to raise children.

I don’t think paid 12 week or paid 12 month vacations make sense, and for many employers they would put them out of business. They would certainly completely sink my business. We do not have the resources to pay a full salary and benefits to someone to do zero work for an entire year, plus pay an expensive subcontractor to fill in for a year to do the missing work, including the cost of training them only to have to fire them a year later.

In Anabaptist circles, women choose to either have careers or else to have children, but don’t indulge in the fantasy you can work full time and also be an effective mother. (If you could, there wouldn’t be all this clamouring for paid 12 month vacations or free childcare.)

[steve-in-kville]

I think social media has changed the way announcements are made on big events such as pregnancies and marriage engagements. I had both a daughter and a son get married a few years ago and this past spring we welcomed our first grandchild. My wife and I would have never imagined posting things on a social media platform like these younger couples do!