On being liberal and our diversity (poll)

[Sudsy]

Imo, since this category in Christianity, is man-made and shows how we have wandered from the unIty Christ desires of His Church it seems to me to just give opportunity for pride to manifest itself in how good a Christian's life is practised whether it be in freedom to not be restricted by these kind of items listed (referred to as 'liberal') or just how many of these one lives by and more (referred to as 'conservative').

Anabaptists, (and I are one who agrees with the basic beliefs and attend an MB church) according to 1 Cor 3, despite all the 'liberal' and 'conservative' practises both seem to fall into the 'carnal' or 'babes in Christ' characterization due to all the splits in their history. To me it seems there is some kind of competition going on between Anabaptist groups with how sanctified one is and often instead of getting along accepting diversity as we grow in Christ, attempts are made to force a certain look of Christ following and when that doesn't work keep splitting off and doing it all over again. This is often excused as a request to having a community of like minded Christ following practises so the world will see true Christianity on display. Imo, it just adds to the disunified family of God look.

I view sanctification as an on-going process where something I may or may not do in orthopraxy need not be imposed on anyone else but if another Christian wants to know why I do or don't do something in my Christ following I should have a scriptural base for it. They may or may not have that same conviction and I should be able to fellowship with them as God loves and accepts them as His child.

Anyway, with that said, I didn't participate in the poll as imo, the way we have used our diversity has been more of a hindrance to furthering the Kingdom than it has in showing the unity of God's Kingdom.

[Haystack]

My grandpa worked on the railroad and was part of the union.
I think fundamentally, unions are about standing up for rights. Maybe not, and that certainly could be expanded upon.
Often, Mennonites frown quite enthusiastically on standing up for ones rights instead of turning the other cheek or preferring the other of ourselves.

I work on the railroad and right now it's more about being a safety net in my opinion. I can see how unions are frowned upon though.. I have the option to leave mine, but I will be targeted not only by management, but also by my co-workers.

[Wade]

The union subject is of great interest to me since I was raised very anti-union and after my first full time employment being union shut down I wanted nothing to do with them. So I avoided them for years and in the process worked my way up in companies from a labourer to the second highest position a labourer could be by only the age of 22, to quitting and getting asked to come back and they would pay for my apprenticeship, books, wages while at school. And then to a big wage increase to move to another place where I was a supervisor and did many big projects with continued pay increases and benefits. To then a company paying my way to move across the country to be a superintendent. I avoided the union but sucked in a pride that stayed mostly hidden.

Finally after returning to a union job while not having any elevated position I have had to finally become honest with myself about who or Who I was working for? A union job takes away any false motivation about climbing up the ladder or looking for more pay and I realized the non-union was actually a problem for me. Now when I work hard it actually gets people asking questions about my faith because they know there is no longer a money or pride motive. I have found the most opportunities to share the gospel now than ever at work.

I also just don't involve myself in any of the union stuff and talk directly to management and avoid job stewards, union meetings, etc. I also make less money now then if I went back to my old place of work and could be non-union, but I believe this is where God wants me for now.

[Neto]

I lost a job years ago in my home state (Oklahoma) because I would not join the union. I don't know if they have 'right to work' laws there now, but both myself & my congregation held to standard which did not approve of union membership. It was the union that forced that company to let me go. I remained friends with the owners, and went back in there several times (after hours) to work on my own stuff there (it was a plating shop), and I also stopped in there once on a furlough home from the mission field, and gave the boss a bow & arrows from the Banawa tribe. (Not throwing any stones, just commenting on my own experience.)

[Sudsy]

My grandpa worked on the railroad and was part of the union.
I think fundamentally, unions are about standing up for rights. Maybe not, and that certainly could be expanded upon.
Often, Mennonites frown quite enthusiastically on standing up for ones rights instead of turning the other cheek or preferring the other of ourselves.

I work on the railroad and right now it's more about being a safety net in my opinion. I can see how unions are frowned upon though.. I have the option to leave mine, but I will be targeted not only by management, but also by my co-workers.

Suggestion - Romans 14 may help -whatever you decide do it unto the Lord. For examples -One could posit that Jesus stood up for those being abused. On the other hand, employees can fall into greed and sense of entitlements. Do as you feel the Spirit guides in what you should do. Other Christians are not to pass judgment in a despiteful way on that decision according to verse 10 but read all of Romans 14 to get all of what Paul is saying. Doing things as unto the Lord will, at times, bring us a degree of human suffering in this world but there is also joy in the Holy Spirit that comes with obedience.

I see others have posted but I'll post this and then read their thoughts.

[Ken]

Can someone explain the conservative Mennonite issue with unions for me? This is honestly something I was unaware of. Perhaps because all the conservative Mennonites in my family on both sides are basically all in agriculture so the issue doesn't really come up.

[Neto]

Can someone explain the conservative Mennonite issue with unions for me? This is honestly something I was unaware of. Perhaps because all the conservative Mennonites in my family on both sides are basically all in agriculture so the issue doesn't really come up.

I grew up MB (Mennonite Brethren), which no one in the 'Plain' Swiss Brethren background would consider 'conservative', but we DID have a statement about labor unions, so I'll respond from the MB perspective. First, the members of a labor union call one another 'brother', and a Christian should not call an unbeliever 'brother'. (This was true of the Electro-Platers' Union - the one I did not join, and so lost my job.) Secondly, the unions have secret meetings, which also forms an objection from the MB church, at least at the time I was still in that job. I don't recall if the congregational statement included this, but my personal conclusion/conviction was also informed by the tendency (at least at that time) for unions to use various forms of 'violence' against the employer, to obtain their demands. (Sometimes even physical violence, and sometimes just the 'violence' of blocking access to the plant, or refusal to work.) These tactics, especially physical violence against strike breakers or destruction of property, is certainly not in the spirit of non-resistance.

[Ken]

Can someone explain the conservative Mennonite issue with unions for me? This is honestly something I was unaware of. Perhaps because all the conservative Mennonites in my family on both sides are basically all in agriculture so the issue doesn't really come up.

I grew up MB (Mennonite Brethren), which no one in the 'Plain' Swiss Brethren background would consider 'conservative', but we DID have a statement about labor unions, so I'll respond from the MB perspective. First, the members of a labor union call one another 'brother', and a Christian should not call an unbeliever 'brother'. (This was true of the Electro-Platers' Union - the one I did not join, and so lost my job.) Secondly, the unions have secret meetings, which also forms an objection from the MB church, at least at the time I was still in that job. I don't recall if the congregational statement included this, but my personal conclusion/conviction was also informed by the tendency (at least at that time) for unions to use various forms of 'violence' against the employer, to obtain their demands. (Sometimes even physical violence, and sometimes just the 'violence' of blocking access to the plant, or refusal to work.) These tactics, especially physical violence against strike breakers or destruction of property, is certainly not in the spirit of non-resistance.

Interesting.

I've been a member of the Federal Employees Union at one time and more recently the Washington State teacher's union. I can't recall anyone ever calling anyone "brother" in either organization. That sounds more like a 1930s blue collar sort of thing. Nor do I recall any secret meetings ever. Union meetings, yes, but they weren't secret and they begged people to show up because attendance was generally pretty poor. I've been at a LOT LOT more "secret' meetings held by my employer than any union I've ever been involved with. I also taught in non-union Texas and frankly teachers in WA are treated better than teachers in TX. As for violence? Well, that's never been a thing in white collar unions. Most of the violent history of labor conflicts was from the 19th and early 20th centries before the passage of the Taft Hartley Act and as much or more violence in labor history was perpetrated by the employers and corporations.

Does the Mennonite prohibition on Unions also extend to working for any corporations or employers who have enganged in violence or facilitated violence? Could a Mennonite work for corporations like Coca Cola, Bayer, United Fruit, Dole, or ConAgra which have all been implicated in labor violence and even death squads in Central America? And is does the prohibition on unions only apply to unions that have actually engaged in violence? Or is it a blanket prohibition on all unions?

[RZehr]

Blanket prohibitions, rooted in reputations of the 1950’s or older, blue collar unions. At least that is what I think. Unions have changed, we haven’t. Surprising, I know.

[Ken]

Blanket prohibitions, rooted in reputations of the 1950’s or older, blue collar unions. At least that is what I think. Unions have changed, we haven’t. Surprising, I know.

One example? My conservative Mennonite mother had a problem with moustaches because they were "military" when, in fact, military moustaches were actually a 19th Century fashion and were going out of style in the military by WW-I. http://blog.wellcomelibrary.org/2015/11 ... moustache/